Dilemma
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03-04-2012, 02:14 PM
RE: Dilemma
(03-04-2012 02:10 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Well, my faith in humanity has been restored! ^^

I talked to my friend later today and asked him if he is in fact christian and raising his daughter as such.
I told him I was an atheist and that I almoast started talking to his daughter about it.

He told me that he wasn't religious (didn't even really know what atheism was) neither was his ex-wife, the girl's mother.
She is however in a catholic school (nearly all schools in Belgium) and that the curriculum was pretty much around it as well.
He said he believes in live and let live and that he was going to indulge things like this.
By the time she grows up she will probably make her own choices anyway.
This is all pretty much in line with their entire family, which progressed through said events in the same way.
My girlfriend even studies on a catholic university because the lable 'catholic' will get her more job opportunities in the future rather than a secular school.

So I'll stick the sidelines and maybe give something like a telescope for her birthday Wink
Give her a book on atheism.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-04-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Dilemma
Hey, Caveman.

I'm glad you resolved this with your friend. That, of course, was the best course of action. Good on you.

For posterity, I just want to post what my response was going to be:

Would you swear and watch porn in front of her?

The answer, of course, is no. Because she's 11. Her parents entrusted her to you and you have a responsibility to do what's best for the child, not for you. There are limits and that's the end of it. The swearing and porn is a no-brainer because you yourself would never think to expose her to that sort of thing. But if a parent hands your their child and says, "care for her," ya gotta honour their wishes about how to raise her. I was a vegan for 7.5 years and if I came home and someone, anyone, let alone my friend, was feeding my kid steak because they thought raising her as a vegan was akin to child abuse and wanted to educate her the way they saw fit, I'd absolutely fucking lose it on them. Forget the end of our friendship, it'd be the end of their front teeth. Seeing as how your buddy was an ex-commando, I'm glad that you erred on the side of caution Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-04-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: Dilemma
Hey Matt/Ghost!

Thanks for your input, you're quite right, but as an atheist my mind the minute it happened was more like what Thomas said, for me it's similar to seeing childabuse. (Reminding me of that great chapter in god Is Not Great.

But yeah, it went as well as could be. ^^

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With the uncanny ability to see all sides in every argument.
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03-04-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: Dilemma
(03-04-2012 04:00 AM)Caveman Wrote:  Do I tell her about how her lifestyle and important aspects of her life are forbidden by the bible and the church? I don't know how her father, my friend, would respond to that. (he's a former commando turned dockworker Tongue) and ofcourse because he's a pretty good friend and he has the right to raise his daughter as he sees fit (it's probably the girl's mother who does all those church things to her anyway, the parents are divorced).

I think the part in bold is the tricky part. Is teaching religion to a child a form of abuse?
In my opinion, yes. What to do about it? I don't know. Unfortunately, we have no Dogma Police. Big Grin
Anyhow, I'm glad the situation worked out for you. Thumbsup


(03-04-2012 02:26 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Would you swear and watch porn in front of her?

The answer, of course, is no. Because she's 11. Her parents entrusted her to you and you have a responsibility to do what's best for the child, not for you. There are limits and that's the end of it. The swearing and porn is a no-brainer because you yourself would never think to expose her to that sort of thing. But if a parent hands your their child and says, "care for her," ya gotta honour their wishes about how to raise her. I was a vegan for 7.5 years and if I came home and someone, anyone, let alone my friend, was feeding my kid steak because they thought raising her as a vegan was akin to child abuse and wanted to educate her the way they saw fit, I'd absolutely fucking lose it on them. Forget the end of our friendship, it'd be the end of their front teeth.

The implication here is that Atheism is something that an 11-year-old can't or shouldn't handle. Which is BS.
I'm living proof of that.
Also, equating porn and swearing (and veganism?) with Atheism is nonsense at best.
None of those things are on the same intellectual plane of existence as Atheism.
Maybe I miss your meaning.
However, you are correct that you absolutely honor the parents wishes.

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03-04-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: Dilemma
Well Quidsane, to your firrst point, I also believe that religion is child abuse, but so are public schools Tongue
Until there are drastic societal changes, those won't really change.

To your second point, the situation is not on a Jesus-Camp level, it's pretty moderate, the girl just still plays all day and hasn't really focused on big life issues like that.
Part of the question then alsois, when to start talking to her about that and of all people, am I the right person for it?
Her dad says she will probably find out on her own, she's a pretty bright girl.
I often read that High school biology classes help a lot of people realise reason.
I will keep probably keep a little eye on it, but I'm now sure the parents are handling it well.

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03-04-2012, 09:51 PM
RE: Dilemma
Hey, Caveman.

Snooch.

Hey, Quidsane.

First of all, awesome user photo!

Second, you do miss my meaning. Parents decide what a child is exposed to and when, not babysitters and for damn sure not the morally outraged. It has nothing to do with what she's capable of handling, it has to do with the fact that no one has the right to arbitrarily decide how to raise someone else's kid. The vegan example, I think, is a good one because some people DO see it as a form of abuse. But if I as a parent made the decision to raise my kid as a vegan, as a mohawk wearing anarchist or as a Bible thumper, that's my business and my right. When children become the battlefield for the disagreements of adults, we officially took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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04-04-2012, 02:15 AM
 
RE: Dilemma
First off, Cat Stevens is a Muslim, and his songs are probably inspired by his Islamic beliefs. But I love Cat Stevens, so...
Second, maybe this girl with your influence will become an atheist. Or maybe she'll become the next Joan of Arc or Mother Teresa. I think the world would be more interesting if she chose the latter path.
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04-04-2012, 02:29 PM
RE: Dilemma
I was referring ofcourse to Morning has Broken, which is a christian hymn. He just made a lovely sounding version of it and I never really listened to the lyrics anyway.

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