Discerning the hand of a god
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23-05-2014, 10:34 PM
Discerning the hand of a god
Deep within these threads a believer made a statement more or less as follows:

It's a reasonable surmise that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind.

Well, suppose a god DID reach out and twiddle our buttons.

How would we know?

How would we know that what just happened was a god twiddling?

How would we know what meaning (divine message) to take from it?

An awful lot of ^&%$ happens every minute on this planet; so does a lot that's marvelous and noble. Things happen in outer space so gargantuan they demolish galaxies.

What distinguishes the natural from the godly twiddling?

How would you know if it were idle twiddling, just mindlessly doodling while preoccupied stirring up a batch of chocolate chip globular clusters, or twiddling with intent to "teach us a lesson"?

Lots of questions raised by the statement above.

Any help from the bibles answering them?
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23-05-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
(23-05-2014 10:34 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Any help from the bibles answering them?

Not likely, but wishful thinking does make a magical worldview appealing....

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-05-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
I have found that, when it comes to apologetics, they are much less concerned with proving that bible is the only good answer, and much more concerned with proving that the bible is at least one possible answer. They don't want to convince you that they are right, they are much more interested in proving that they are not wrong.

Christians claim that they want to save your soul and that you know the one true way and blah blah blah. In reality I think deep down nearly all christians know they believe in some really wacky shit. A atheist challenge them to prove that wacky shit. For most people proof of God comes in the form of voices they think they hear in their head and "signs" they see in mundane things in their every day life. Its far more about comfort than it is about rationality. They are just looking to give enough evidence prove that it is at least conceivable that their religion could be true. Not to convince you, just to give themselves enough license to keep believing it. The alternative, really seeking out not only a possible answer but the best answer, is far to frightening. People who do just that, it seems, inevitably arrive at atheism.
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23-05-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
(23-05-2014 10:34 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Well, suppose a god DID reach out and twiddle our buttons.

How would we know?

It would tickle.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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23-05-2014, 11:10 PM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
(23-05-2014 11:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-05-2014 10:34 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Well, suppose a god DID reach out and twiddle our buttons.

How would we know?

It would tickle.

lmao

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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23-05-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
Divine intervention is just a way of people trying to rationalize what they do not understand.

Nothing in our universe happens that cannot be explained.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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23-05-2014, 11:37 PM
Re: Discerning the hand of a god
When people start heavily using that type of reasoning.. I back away from serious discussion with them because I don't see any pleading with evidence and reason opening their mind.

There isn't much you can find to explain how to tell the difference. A person will just make their own Gods divine inspiration arguments end use generic Bible quotes to confirm it, ignoring their circular reasoning.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-05-2014, 01:42 AM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
Your point is well-made. We wouldn't know this god was twiddling. Surely the concept of god and omnipotence includes the ability to twiddle in ways that we cannot detect.

So, given that nobody has any evidence of such twiddling (I'm discounting wishful thinkers blaming god for all kinds of things without any real evidence), it's clear that if such a being exists and if it is twiddling, we cannot detect it.

Which leaves two conclusions:

1. Such a god exists and twiddles but we cannot detect it.
or
2. No such god exists.

Since we cannot detect this god, and since we clearly cannot influence this god, I see no reason to behave as if such a god exists. If he does, and he's going to twiddle me or not twiddle me, at his discretion, ignoring any input from me, then what's the point of believing in him?

Occam's Razor suggests that option 2 is the simplest answer, so I'll stick with that one.

At least until I'm twiddled in such a way that I can easily see the hand of a god involved.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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24-05-2014, 03:33 AM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
(23-05-2014 11:02 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have found that, when it comes to apologetics, they are much less concerned with proving that bible is the only good answer, and much more concerned with proving that the bible is at least one possible answer. They don't want to convince you that they are right, they are much more interested in proving that they are not wrong.

Christians claim that they want to save your soul and that you know the one true way and blah blah blah. In reality I think deep down nearly all christians know they believe in some really wacky shit. A atheist challenge them to prove that wacky shit. For most people proof of God comes in the form of voices they think they hear in their head and "signs" they see in mundane things in their every day life. Its far more about comfort than it is about rationality. They are just looking to give enough evidence prove that it is at least conceivable that their religion could be true. Not to convince you, just to give themselves enough license to keep believing it. The alternative, really seeking out not only a possible answer but the best answer, is far to frightening. People who do just that, it seems, inevitably arrive at atheism.

I really like this post. Well said!
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24-05-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Discerning the hand of a god
This is what makes God (if he exists) an evil prick...

"I'm going to do something amazing on Earth, but I'm going to make it look like it was a purely natural phenomenon... But if you are confused and don't attribute it to me, I'll have you tortured for all eternity..."

Its pretty obvious that whoever invented this God dude was a sadistic psychopath, who took great pleasure in exploiting people's natural fear of the unknown.

Whoever he was... I'd like to give him a good, hard kick to the bollocks, just for being such a prick.

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