Discipline/lack of and atheism
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12-06-2017, 05:30 PM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
I'm not very good at discipline. Apparently I can keep a job though, if it's simple enough.

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13-06-2017, 05:20 AM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
In reference to honor:

Honor is not duty or obedience. To my mind, honor is that thing within the conscience, whose small voice niggles at you when it is offended by your thoughts or actions.

Principles and values and oaths can override that small voice, but stillness allows it to be heard.

Honor will allow you to do the very hard things that might go against your principles or your duty, but it won't let you do them without consequence and you will suffer if you are an honorable person...and you will suffer in the worst possible way, within your own conscience as long as you remember.

It is that thing, which an atheist might call a "soul" ... intangible and often inundated by principle and duty.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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13-06-2017, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2017 12:47 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
(13-06-2017 05:20 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  In reference to honor:

Honor is not duty or obedience.

Certainly. Honor is doing one duty and being obedient. But it is not like there is only one code of honor or definition of it.

Quote:To my mind, honor is that thing within the conscience, whose small voice niggles at you when it is offended by your thoughts or actions.

I don't see honor as part of conscience rather as something used to quell voice of said conscience.

Quote:Principles and values and oaths can override that small voice, but stillness allows it to be heard.

And honor allows one to ignore it and delude oneself into thinking that remaining oath-bound was right choice.

Quote:Honor will allow you to do the very hard things that might go against your principles or your duty, but it won't let you do them without consequence and you will suffer if you are an honorable person...and you will suffer in the worst possible way, within your own conscience as long as you remember.

Or rather it will allow you to hide from hard choice under pretense of remaining honorably tied by oaths given. As I said earlier - traitor is dishonorable by definition but that does not make his betrayal wrong.

Quote:It is that thing, which an atheist might call a "soul" ... intangible and often inundated by principle and duty.

I have no use for neither soul nor "soul".

Edit: Honor I see as notion that outlived it's era. Perhaps it was needed in ages past to leash man inner beast but as XX century shown it is idea that should be discarded now. And yes I know that you write with different understanding of honor in mind.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-06-2017, 05:43 AM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
Well, Szuchow, we just have a very different viewpoint about that intangible notion called honor. It is a very personal definition when considered carefully. It is most certainly a difficult thing to define.

And...like the word "soul" I know what I mean when I use it and most people know what I mean when they hear it used, even though as an atheist, I know that I do not have one.

To my mind and through my definition, honor is a thing that humanity must never lose. We treat it indifferently at the peril of our human "soul."

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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14-06-2017, 06:08 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2017 06:15 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
(14-06-2017 05:43 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Well, Szuchow, we just have a very different viewpoint about that intangible notion called honor. It is a very personal definition when considered carefully. It is most certainly a difficult thing to define.

And...like the word "soul" I know what I mean when I use it and most people know what I mean when they hear it used, even though as an atheist, I know that I do not have one.

To my mind and through my definition, honor is a thing that humanity must never lose. We treat it indifferently at the peril of our human "soul."

Honor is a thing that humanity as a whole never had - Julius Caesar mass murders, Genghis Khan massacres, The Thirty Years' War atrocities, Ukrainian Holodomor and Khmer Rogue purges seen to that*. Abandoning notion of honor won't damage human "soul" (not only cause there is no such thing) for nothing can stain it further; honor is being accessory to mass murder under misplaced notion of being true to oath given, honor is mindless brutality of thug willing to kill own flesh and blood cause some behavior is deemed disrespectful (honor killing), honor is leash no longer needed and one that never worked well. At least such is my take with which I suppose you will disagree.

*If you think that above mentioned stains leaders rather than common man then I add examples of Jacquerie or The Galician Slaughter.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-06-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
Okay...

May humanity have often striven for honor and may humanity never lose that desire to strive for honor?

Is that an okay notion that will withstand your sense of reality?

Is my definition of honor a thing that I may strive for if I choose?

Is this desire to strive for honor something that sets us apart from the so-called "lower life forms" those that we do not consider to be sentient?

And...as you do not know the mind and "soul" of those who caused the slaughter of people, can you assume that their conscience never niggled them at any time during their life about the atrocities which they committed or ordered to be committed?

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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14-06-2017, 06:42 AM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
(14-06-2017 06:27 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  May humanity have often striven for honor and may humanity never lose that desire to strive for honor?

You read what I wrote about honor? Humanity striving for such is something that I abhor. Keep in mind that I don't agree with your definition or in my opinion needless usage of word "soul" and therefore I use mine in answering your question.

If honor is supposed to mean (more or less) not being a dick then humans should strive for such.

Quote:Is that an okay notion that will withstand your sense of reality?

My sense of reality?

Quote:Is my definition of honor a thing that I may strive for if I choose?

Trying to play persecution card? Did I implied that you can't strive for whatever you find good or I just written how I see something called honor?

Quote:Is this desire to strive for honor something that sets us apart from the so-called "lower life forms" those that we do not consider to be sentient?

No. Desire to have something to hide behind when hard choices are encountered isn't something that I can approve.

Also there are many things that set us apart from other animals. I wonder what purpose you have in setting such multifaceted notion as benchmark? Trying to make notion of honor somewhat relevant?

Quote:And...as you do not know the mind and "soul" of those who caused the slaughter of people, can you assume that their conscience never niggled them at any time during their life about the atrocities which they committed or ordered to be committed?

I don't give a shit about their conscience. Obviously it didn't stopped them and therefore it matters not. Some or even all of them felt remorseful after killing they did/ordered? It counts for shit as their remorse will not resurrect the victims nor it made perpetrators better; remorseful killer is still killer.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-06-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
I freely admit that I'm a slob. I have very little self-discipline. My apartment is not tidy, and neither is my life. It's all a glorious mess, and I'm OK with that.

But this says nothing at all about atheists in general.
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16-06-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
Sorry Szuchow, I was merely attempting to have a discussion about the topic, not get in a pissing contest.

I will agree that we have differing opinions about honor, including how we define the term.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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16-06-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: Discipline/lack of and atheism
(16-06-2017 12:51 PM)Jeanne Wrote:  Sorry Szuchow, I was merely attempting to have a discussion about the topic, not get in a pissing contest.

Can't really see it from your previous post.

Quote:I will agree that we have differing opinions about honor, including how we define the term.

Your agreement is immaterial as regardless of it we have both different opinions and different definitions.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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