Discriminating
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03-02-2011, 02:49 PM
RE: Discriminating
Ghost,

Was your reaction strong? Yep. Unfair? I don't think so. In fact when I read it, it helped me gain perspective. I never once assumed you were saying that what's going on with Trillium was anything less than completely wrong. What I saw was a post that was saying, "Hey guys! Time to wake up and realize that you have a right to fight for your rights. What's more is that your fight isn't nearly as bad as some others that have been won in the past, so your ability to win is within your grasp!"

I'm tired of seeing an instant negative reaction to anything Ghost says. He has some very different views than the majoroty of people here. He challenges those views, and we should all thank him for it. We're talking about a person that not only has the balls to say some things that will be unpopular, but also concedes that he makes mistakes. He admits his faults more than anyone else here, myself included. He IS reacted to with hostility. Time to grow up, and listen to a different opinion instead of crossing your arms and saying "humph" like a little kid that's just been told he can't have candy for dinner.

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03-02-2011, 03:01 PM
RE: Discriminating
I suppose I took Ghost's post the wrong way. When you interpret it that way I can see where he's coming from with the heavy handed comparisons. I read it in a way that would position him as saying we're somehow over exaggerating our own lot... Anyhow, that's the risk with heavy handedness, as it were, so I'm not sure if I offended or came across as angry in some instance but if I did I apologize, I just needed to shift my perspective.

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03-02-2011, 04:49 PM
RE: Discriminating
(03-02-2011 02:49 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I'm tired of seeing an instant negative reaction to anything Ghost says.

My reaction had absolutely nothing to do with him having a contrary position. I could care less if he does not agree with me. And, where he has put forth reasoned arguments, I have responded in kind. If anything, I think the past shows that it is Ghost himself who has gone to person attacks. Now, he and I have had our differences, so I suggest you take a perusal at past debates between Ghost and posters other than me and let the record speak for itself.

As for this current discussion, sorry but that was a complete and total bullshit response. No one was claiming comparisons to Rosa Parks or comparisons to the real struggles others have gone through. No one was holding themselves out as some kind of societal victim trampled down by society. The question was, simply "has anyone faced discrimination for being an atheist" and a few people responded. Trillium, in particular, discussed her situation and we empathized with her. So what? She wasn't putting herself on equal footings with blacks, gay, people in Guantanamo, etc. The entire response was at best intellectually dishonest and at worst completely insulting and condescending.

We don't need to be lectured to by some pompous intellectual about how good we have it. If someone makes a random thought about being hungry, do we have to be subjected to a diatribe about the history of starving people in the world and how fortunate we are because all of us have the cash to go buy ourselves a sandwich? Because, that is basically what happened here.

Matt's response to all this was not one in any way, shape or form intended to further the discussion or open it up to debate. It was an attack, pure and simple. And, quite honestly Stark, to now say that he's the aggrieved party is ridiculous. First, he's a big boy and he can stand up for himself. Second, in this instance you're wrong.

This isn't about agreeing or disagree with me or anyone else. We all don't agree on everything here. We've gotten into some discussions on issues that tend to hit home with people. We managed to discuss abortion and guns, two hot bed topics, and while people disagreed with each other I thought the discussions were done respectfully and intelligently. Not everyone agreed but not everyone has to. This was not a matter of expressing a contrary position. This was simply someone who went out of his way to be an asshole.

Now, all that said, maybe I'm wrong. If everyone else thinks I jumped the gun here, then please tell me and I'll happily (well maybe not happily) apologize for it.

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03-02-2011, 05:16 PM
RE: Discriminating
(03-02-2011 04:49 PM)BnW Wrote:  My reaction had absolutely nothing to do with him having a contrary position. I could care less if he does not agree with me. And, where he has put forth reasoned arguments, I have responded in kind. If anything, I think the past shows that it is Ghost himself who has gone to person attacks. Now, he and I have had our differences, so I suggest you take a perusal at past debates between Ghost and posters other than me and let the record speak for itself.
I will take your suggestion. From what I can recall, Matts style has on several occasions caused people to think he was attacking them, and also from what I recall, he has always been willing to explain himself further.

Quote:As for this current discussion, sorry but that was a complete and total bullshit response. No one was claiming comparisons to Rosa Parks or comparisons to the real struggles others have gone through. No one was holding themselves out as some kind of societal victim trampled down by society. The question was, simply "has anyone faced discrimination for being an atheist" and a few people responded. Trillium, in particular, discussed her situation and we empathized with her. So what? She wasn't putting herself on equal footings with blacks, gay, people in Guantanamo, etc. The entire response was at best intellectually dishonest and at worst completely insulting and condescending.
I read his response. I am aware of what he wrote. In that response, I didn't see him claim that others were comparing their own experiences with the ones he mentioned. I think he mentioned them for perspective and nothing else. (Granted he was seemingly emotionally driven, but what of that. Are we not all guilty of overstating things from time to time?)

Quote:We don't need to be lectured to by some pompous intellectual about how good we have it. If someone makes a random thought about being hungry, do we have to be subjected to a diatribe about the history of starving people in the world and how fortunate we are because all of us have the cash to go buy ourselves a sandwich? Because, that is basically what happened here.
Speaking of overstating things, your comparison here is not even close.

Quote:Matt's response to all this was not one in any way, shape or form intended to further the discussion or open it up to debate. It was an attack, pure and simple. And, quite honestly Stark, to now say that he's the aggrieved party is ridiculous. First, he's a big boy and he can stand up for himself. Second, in this instance you're wrong.
Ummm, no other way to say this but, bullshit. You seem to be confusing your interpretation of things with facts. They're not always the same. Actually I'm suprised to hear you tell me what someone else intended as though you were in their head. As for him being a "big boy", I'm not saying what I am to defend him. It's what I think, and if you have a problem with me stating my opinion, that's your problem. And you say Matt's pompous?

Quote:This isn't about agreeing or disagree with me or anyone else. We all don't agree on everything here. We've gotten into some discussions on issues that tend to hit home with people. We managed to discuss abortion and guns, two hot bed topics, and while people disagreed with each other I thought the discussions were done respectfully and intelligently. Not everyone agreed but not everyone has to. This was not a matter of expressing a contrary position. This was simply someone who went out of his way to be an asshole.
Who's being an asshole now? C'mon man, The guy even went as far as to retract some of what he said, and admitted he was being a dick, so don't tell me he's being the asshole here.

Quote:Now, all that said, maybe I'm wrong. If everyone else thinks I jumped the gun here, then please tell me and I'll happily (well maybe not happily) apologize for it.

You are the last person to apologize just because people tell you too. And I don't think you should. You review the discussion, and if YOU conclude that you owe anyone an apology then you should apologize. Otherwise, you should never be sorry for having an opinion.

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03-02-2011, 07:24 PM
RE: Discriminating
(03-02-2011 05:16 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Are we not all guilty of overstating things from time to time?)

We undoubtedly all are. The "Rosa Parks" comment just really set me off (obviously). Again, the point of the thread was not for people to cast their lot with the truly oppressed people of the world but mostly to vent. The response was (to me) extremely personal and condescending. Having read his follow ups, and now having re-read the original thread, I understand the point he was making, but I still feel it was absolutely the wrong way to do it. I'm happy to leave it at that.

(03-02-2011 05:16 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  It's what I think, and if you have a problem with me stating my opinion, that's your problem.

100% agreed. And, almost ironic considering your comments preceding this one.

(03-02-2011 05:16 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  And you say Matt's pompous?

Yes, I do. I guess pomposity and beauty have something in common.

(03-02-2011 05:16 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Who's being an asshole now? C'mon man, The guy even went as far as to retract some of what he said, and admitted he was being a dick, so don't tell me he's being the asshole here.

Yes, he did, although I will concede I was annoyed enough at the time at his first comment to not carefully read the 2nd (or the 3rd, but I did not respond to that one so no harm). The initial comment really ticked me off (again: obviously). It just came out of nowhere and I thought it was really, really unfair. And, I probably would have been far less angry about it if I felt it was directed at me as opposed to someone else who was just sharing their experience and did not deserve to be smacked for it. I should not have responded the 2nd time as I did so, yes, for that I do apologize to Matt/Ghost. That was my bad.

(03-02-2011 05:16 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  You are the last person to apologize just because people tell you too. And I don't think you should. You review the discussion, and if YOU conclude that you owe anyone an apology then you should apologize. Otherwise, you should never be sorry for having an opinion.

I think your point here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is I'm not gong to apologize just to bow to public opinion. You're right, I won't, and I would not ask anyone else to either. So, I probably should retract the statement.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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03-02-2011, 09:20 PM
RE: Discriminating
Ok...

Last night I only skimmed through Ghost's first post, and only now as I re-read everything do I see that a good amount of that was directed at me. Or so it would seem, even though later he stated otherwise. Either way, I now feel like I have to defend myself.

I hate the situation I'm in. I'd like nothing more than to be able to say "fuck y'all, this isn't right" but I just don't have the energy. We're not just talking about one employer here, it's a whole culture where I'm living. I'm not the martyr type. Do I hate it? Yes. Am I going to make a huge stink about it? No. If I am being totally honest I don't have the fortitude to do such a thing in this place.

How I came to this situation is my problem. I'm not going to go into great details here on this board because frankly it's not everyone's business. What it comes down to is that I have to choose between standing up for what I think is right, and having a roof over my head and food on the table. I don't intend to stay here for one second longer than is absolutely necessary, so in this instance, this is not a battle that I am going to choose to fight. It would be pointless.

I sometimes feel like I have no dignity any more. I'm not proud of all of this. When this thread was posted I saw an opportunity to vent to people who I thought would understand. For those of you who do, and have supported me, I appreciate it. For those who don't, I'm not sure what to think. To be honest I'm feeling rather hurt right now, I'm a rather sensitive person. I was really happy when I found this place, to find like thinking people and a place to feel like I could express myself.

I'm probably just overreacting right now but frankly this has all rather upset me and I don't know what to think or say at this point. I think maybe I need to stay away for a bit. Anyone who wants to say anything to me can PM me.

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03-02-2011, 10:40 PM
RE: Discriminating
BnW,

Well said. I am also happy leaving it at that. As for how you interpreted my last statement; yes, you are correct. I don't think you would bow to public opinion. That's something I admire, and it's why I am comfortable having the tough conversations with you.

Trill,

I can only speak for myself on this point, but please don't be hurt by anything I've said here. The thread was about venting, but as it evolved, it became a conversation (a heated one at that). I am a HUGE proponent of the evolution of conversation. In real life a conversation rarely ends on the same topic it began with. I don't see why it should be any different here, which is why I hate moderation on forums (or at least one reason) Nothing bugs me more than when some moderator pipes up and tells people to "keep it on topic". For that reason I can say with all sincerity that none of what I said was directed at you. BnW and I can both be pretty "loud" when we argue, but rest assured, having it out with someone simply means that I consider what they have to say important enough to respond to.
I say so just so that you can hopefully see that the venting you did was a good thing, and that you need not feel bad that it sparked debate. I for one, am appalled at your situation, and don't think there's anything wrong with how you've chosen to handle it.

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05-02-2011, 08:54 PM
RE: Discriminating
Hey, BnW.

Quote:The "Rosa Parks" comment just really set me off (obviously).

Out of curiosity, for what reason?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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05-02-2011, 09:10 PM
RE: Discriminating
I've had to fill in religion on job interview sheets all the time here in the UK, 9 times out of 10 there isn't an Atheist or even a No Religion option so I have to tick Other.

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05-02-2011, 09:25 PM
RE: Discriminating
(05-02-2011 09:10 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  I've had to fill in religion on job interview sheets all the time here in the UK, 9 times out of 10 there isn't an Atheist or even a No Religion option so I have to tick Other.
Don't you have the Dawkins signal in the UK? Whenever an atheist is in trouble I thought he jumped in the Reason-Mobile and rushed to save the day?

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