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Discussion about American documents.
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08-06-2012, 11:43 PM
Discussion about American documents.
A discussion with a theist about American documents refferancing Religion.
Me:By our old Docs... Do you mean Americas?
Him:All euro and facade-o-euro nations mention god in there texts

M:We are talking about America, as in USA... Then no.The only mention of God is in the Dec of independance, and it is not the Christian God they are referring to... It is a Deistic version of God, not a theistic one.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.html
This is a summary of the main docs I could find.

H:In god we trust, ...by god with life, liberty and the pursuit of, etc. Also, god is a pronoun, therefore not deistic

M:In God we trust was added on currency in the 1950's.

H:And manifest destiny references God several times

M:Liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
God is a pronoun therefor not Deistic... Are you serious?

H:Also the Manifest Destiny mentions God.

M:Also the Manifest Destiny does indeed mention God, but it was written in the 1840's.... Also it advocated white supremacy... And was an unsigned document in a magazine.

H:But, an official policy none the less.

M: Manifest Destiny was not itself an official government policy.

H:Just like the Whiteman's burden wasn't?

M:Are you referring to the poem?

H:Yes. That was an active policy of most nations during the age of imperialism
May not have been a true policy, but it was followed like one

H:Star spangled banner referenced god when it was written, but the stanzas were shortened in the 1800s.
The god part was at the end.

M:It was written by Francis Scott Key, who was looking at it subjectively.... He might have believed in God, and might have written it in, but it got taken out.



H:It stated the motto of the country would be: un god we trust. And it was adopted during conception. Most national anthems are not written exclusively written to be such. And it got cut later on.

M: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust
And the point of the national anthem was..?

H:to unite a nation

M:It doesn't matter. If it was intended to be a national anthem in the first place, it wouldn't have God in the first place.

H:But then why was it If they wished for complete separation, why was it allowed to stay for a time? Your logic proves false.

M:Keep reading the fucking article.

H:I do not imply the currency, but the poem itself. They kept it in the anthem for sometime until later it was edited. The money I knew of.

M:"...Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

H:I never said gov't sponsored, just that religion can be found within offical docs. That is what this discussion has been about

M:Barely, and even then...The "God" of the Dec, and Money are Deistic.They have absolutely NOTHING to do with any established Religion.Besides being named God.

H:Money was off the stat spangled, and that was not deistic.

M:Show me proof that it wasn't.

H:It was written as someone's personal poem of patriotism. One needs not worry about gov't rules for such.

M:You still haven't proved to be that it wasn't Deistic.Personal or not, it might have been, and is justified as being used as a patriotic symbol, not a religious one.

H:He needs not listen to the rules of the gov't where church is a no-no. Therefore, he need not careful of wording. And then you admit that god is a patriotic symbol of america by justification such as

M:While he may have written it as theistic, as I did find out, the government promotes it as a Patriotic symbol.If you are arguing that every mention of God is religious then Alert Einstein and Stephen Hawking are believers. (they aren't.)

M: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries- a USA document.

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09-06-2012, 06:21 AM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
I have a general question for everyone because I've heard it both ways. Are Deists Theists or are the two seperate?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-06-2012, 06:58 AM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
(09-06-2012 06:21 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I have a general question for everyone because I've heard it both ways. Are Deists Theists or are the two seperate?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Deists are not Theists. Deists simply believe that a Higher Power, or a god ( of unknown origin) created the universe. That's it.

Theists, on the otherhand, assert that this "Creater" answers prayers, or intervenes, or intercedes, in human affairs. (I.E Most religions.).

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09-06-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
To me it doesn't matter if the Constitution or the Bill of Rights starts out like this:
"The Lord Jesus Christ, which this nation is founded upon, gives us the following rights...."
We still need to move on. A 200 or 2,000 year old document both have a problem. They lack current knowledge when they were written.
Religion as a superstitious nonsense is fairly well established, so says me. Opinions differ.
I don't care what religion the originators of the US Constitution were under, or what they were smoking, or sticking up their asses for amusement.
If someone has an idea, the claim some god gave it to them through revelation doesn't have a thing to do with it being a good or bad idea. It just a claim used to force their ideas onto others.
If it's a good idea, lets discuss it. If not, do something else, possibly nothing. But, don't claim god said it so we can't eat shellfish on Tuesday afternoon after 4:30 eastern standard time and put on some stupid hat facing east while chanting "god is great".
We have to quit pretending that people with less knowledge than us of the material world were smarter for some reason, so the ideas that they wrote down have elevated meaning over our current judgment. They do not!!!
Religion is for people who can't tolerate the idea of making their own decisions and being personally responsible for making bad ones. For some reason, GOD has to be in play for a government document to have value. Are the old ideas still good today? That's the question I want to ask. Let's review them. If they're not, change them. Let's EVOLVE!!!!!!
The religious need to grow up and stop dragging the rest of society down to their level of childish ignorance.
They can start by dropping the religion.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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09-06-2012, 08:29 PM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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10-06-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
I find the whole conversation pointless... it's predicated on the idea that if our forefathers had set this country up as Christian, then it would still be a Christian country. That's a genetic fallacy. The important part is whether or not the law establishes this as a Christian country, and clearly the first amendment's establishment clause makes it clear that no religion is to be legally dominant.

So it doesn't really matter whether or not our forefathers referenced God or what they meant when they did. They could have all been Christian, and we'd still be living in a secular nation because they didn't try to impose their religion on us. Perhaps that's something that your Christian friend could learn a lesson from.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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11-06-2012, 08:54 AM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
The USA are not a secular nation state. The USA are ruled by religion. "One nation, under God..." says it all.
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11-06-2012, 09:15 AM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
It's simple.

The US wasn't founded by Christians. It was founded by Deists. "God" is referenced, but it is a non-descriptive pronoun aka a placeholder for anything that anyone considers to be their "god" - from the Christian God to money. Anything can be a "god".

It's basically whatever you consider to be your driving force or your sole purpose.

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11-06-2012, 01:30 PM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
@AtotheTheist: I don't think you will find any logical person that places you in the wrong.

Thomas and Kingschosen hit the facts on this quickly. While there is a ton of proof on many of the founding fathers being both Christian and Deist, they chose to stop the religious oppression from England and chose to write it in a deistic fashion. Jefferson even wrote several letters defending atheism and how it was not anything to "Demonism" which is what many folks in that day were drawing to the conclusion that they were the same.

I have recently had a few arguements with some Christians on this (some family) on facebook and in now way, shape, for form does it ever end well. The best I could do was get most of them to the point where they couldn't logically argue back. But then they would turn it back to matters of faith. One individual, who apparently I knew when I was extremely young, even tried to push it to his "fact" that everyone lives on faith, and that's what the founding fathers wanted.

But as Thomas said, it is truely irrelevant. Just like a Bible which was written a different times from 2,000-5,000 years ago, was written in the culture of its time by the culture of it's authors. Same with all the "original" documents from the USA's establishment. While they got some things right, it is clear that many of the original laws and foundational documents are meant as broad coats of paint. And then we have, as we attempt to do today, refine it with amendments, bills, and annulments.

So you can keep dealing with people like this which is fine, and we all do on some level. Or you can let the next generation of teaching take place. This generation of public school teachers are not allowed to mention any 1 God or belief without giving honorable mention to all religions. So soon this type of thought will flee our world. Maybe not soon enough, but soon. Good post though, I love seeing other people's arguements as it reminds me of maybe how I could have fared better and that leads to more sound arguments and better debates.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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11-06-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: Discussion about American documents.
(11-06-2012 01:30 PM)AmishLatinJew Wrote:  @AtotheTheist: I don't think you will find any logical person that places you in the wrong.

Thomas and Kingschosen hit the facts on this quickly. While there is a ton of proof on many of the founding fathers being both Christian and Deist, they chose to stop the religious oppression from England and chose to write it in a deistic fashion. Jefferson even wrote several letters defending atheism and how it was not anything to "Demonism" which is what many folks in that day were drawing to the conclusion that they were the same.

I have recently had a few arguements with some Christians on this (some family) on facebook and in now way, shape, for form does it ever end well. The best I could do was get most of them to the point where they couldn't logically argue back. But then they would turn it back to matters of faith. One individual, who apparently I knew when I was extremely young, even tried to push it to his "fact" that everyone lives on faith, and that's what the founding fathers wanted.

But as Thomas said, it is truely irrelevant. Just like a Bible which was written a different times from 2,000-5,000 years ago, was written in the culture of its time by the culture of it's authors. Same with all the "original" documents from the USA's establishment. While they got some things right, it is clear that many of the original laws and foundational documents are meant as broad coats of paint. And then we have, as we attempt to do today, refine it with amendments, bills, and annulments.

So you can keep dealing with people like this which is fine, and we all do on some level. Or you can let the next generation of teaching take place. This generation of public school teachers are not allowed to mention any 1 God or belief without giving honorable mention to all religions. So soon this type of thought will flee our world. Maybe not soon enough, but soon. Good post though, I love seeing other people's arguements as it reminds me of maybe how I could have fared better and that leads to more sound arguments and better debates.
I know that, but the opening statement he made worried me about his education. ( He is a history Major. )

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