Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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06-08-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
[Image: 090127debunking_mormonism_caveman.jpg]

[Image: mormonism.jpg?w=620]

[Image: mormonism-fun-fact-atheism.jpg]


The boy seems to have had rocks in his head.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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06-08-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Reading material that conflicts with ones religious belief and accepting that it's true are two different things.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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06-08-2015, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 01:37 PM by Alla.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 06:57 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(05-08-2015 10:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  Where does Book of Mormon claim this?
Apparently you didn't bother to read, I will link you to the post, if one doesn't read, and apply critical thinking skills, one doesn't learn.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825859
Is my English that horrible that you didn't understand what I asked?
I have read what you posted. You have made me to read it twice. But that is OK. I don't mind to read twice.

goodwithoutgod, let me try one more time in very plain English:

I did NOT ask you what the introduction to the BoM claims. I did NOT ask you what some LDS people's PERSONAL opinions are.
But I DID ASK you:
1)Where does the BoM claim that Native Americans are Hebrews?

About introduction to the BoM:
where does introduction to the BoM claim that Native Americans are Hebrew?

about some LDS people's PERSONAL opinions:
who of them said that Native Americans are Hebrew?

And one more question in very, very plain English:
I am not an expert in this DNA field that is why I ask you please to let me know(to open my eyes):

Would the DNA of Lehi and his followers have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival to America?
Book of Mormon is smarter than ANY Prophet of God.
back to you, my friend

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06-08-2015, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 02:38 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 01:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 06:57 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Apparently you didn't bother to read, I will link you to the post, if one doesn't read, and apply critical thinking skills, one doesn't learn.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825859
Is my English that horrible that you didn't understand what I asked?
I have read what you posted. You have made me to read it twice. But that is OK. I don't mind to read twice.

goodwithoutgod, let me try one more time in very plain English:

I did NOT ask you what the introduction to the BoM claims. I did NOT ask you what some LDS people's PERSONAL opinions are.
But I DID ASK you:
1)Where does the BoM claim that Native Americans are Hebrews?

About introduction to the BoM:
where does introduction to the BoM claim that Native Americans are Hebrew?

about some LDS people's PERSONAL opinions:
who of them said that Native Americans are Hebrew?

And one more question in very, very plain English:
I am not an expert in this DNA field that is why I ask you please to let me know(to open my eyes):

Would the DNA of Lehi and his followers have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival to America?
Book of Mormon is smarter than ANY Prophet of God.
back to you, my friend

Teaching you about your own religion is becoming tedious Alla.

According to the Book of Mormon, the family of Lehi (a wealthy Hebrew prophet), the family of Ishmael, and Zoram traveled from the Middle East circa 600 BC to the Americas by boat. Some time after the death of Lehi (in the Americas), one of the sons of Lehi, Nephi, was concerned that his brothers were plotting to kill him; as a result, Nephi, his family, and his followers left and went into the wilderness. The followers of Nephi called themselves Nephites and referred to others as Lamanites, after Lehi's oldest son, Laman.

The Nephites later discovered another civilization living in America, and the combined group also called themselves Nephites. According to the Book of Mormon, there were many interactions between the Lamanites and the Nephites; intermittent war, trade, and proselytizing transpired with varying degrees of success. God initially marked the Lamanites with a darker skin color to identify them and their state of wickedness. The Nephites were initially righteous, though over time, individuals and sub-groups defected and joined the Lamanites. Likewise, some penitent Lamanites defected to the Nephites.

Following the American visitation of the resurrected Jesus Christ, the Lamanites and Nephites coexisted for two centuries in peace (from circa AD 30 until 230); "There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God." Eighty-four years after the coming of Christ, "a small part of the people who had revolted from the church" started calling themselves Lamanites. After four generations this period of peace and cooperation between the two suffered corruption and decline as social and economic classes resurfaced. In the year 231, "[the] true believers in Christ" started calling themselves Nephites. The Lamanites eventually became a larger portion of the population.

Ultimately, the Lamanites were successful in destroying the Nephites, in a series of wars from AD 326 to about 400.

Zeniff describes them as:
"Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea; and again, that they were wronged while in the land of their first inheritance, after they had crossed the sea" (Mosiah 10:12–13).

Zeniff also says that the Lamanites felt that they were wronged by Nephi, and thus swore vengeance against his descendants:

"[the Lamanites] were wroth with him [Nephi] because he departed into the wilderness as the Lord had commanded him, and took the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, for they said that he robbed them.

"And thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, and that they should murder them, and that they should rob and plunder them, and do all they could to destroy them; therefore they have an eternal hatred towards the children of Nephi" (Mosiah 10:16–17).

The Lamanites are one of the people described in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon portrays the Lamanites as usually dark-skinned, wicked rivals to the usually lighter-skinned, righteous Nephites, both of whom are portrayed as descendants of Israelites who traveled to the New World by boat circa 600 BC. (Other groups from the book include the Jaredites, and Mulekites.) Historically, Mormons have identified the Lamanites as the indigenous peoples of the Americas and the Polynesians, or some part of their ancestors. However, in the 21st century, Mormon scholars who favor a limited geography model have been disclaiming any significant genetic connection between Lamanites and any modern people.

Because only Mormons consider the Book of Mormon to have an ancient historical basis, Lamanites are not considered to be a valid category of people by mainstream scholars.

According to the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites are descendants of Laman and Lemuel, two rebellious brothers of a family of Israelites who crossed the ocean in a ship around 600 BC. Their brother Nephi is portrayed as founding the rival Nephites. The book states that after the two groups separated from each other, the Lamanites received a curse of a "skin of blackness" so that they would "not be enticing" to the Nephites. After the two groups warred over a period of centuries, the book says that Jesus appeared and converted all the united Nephites and Lamanites to Christianity. However, after about two centuries, the book says that many of these Christians fell away and began to identify as Lamanites, leading some of the "true believers in Christ" to identify as Nephites. Ultimately, the book describes a series of great battles in which the Lamanites exterminated all the Nephites. Oddly, there exists not one scrap of archeological evidence to support these claims, to no surprise.

Mormons beginning with Joseph Smith have historically identified Lamanites with indigenous Americans, and sometimes even Polynesians. Scholars outside Mormonism do not consider the term Lamanite as a category of real people, or accept the Book of Mormon as a valid source of ancient American history. Mormon scholars, representing a small minority view, have identified a few alternative locations in the ancient New World where they hypothesize Lamanites described in the Book of Mormon might have lived, the most popular of which is Mesoamerica. Traditionally, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) taught that Lamanites were "the principal ancestors of the American Indians." In 2007, the church changed this teaching to the belief that that Lamanites were "among" the ancestors of American Indians.

In December 2010, the LDS Church made changes to the non-canonical chapter summaries and also to some of the footnotes in its online version of the Book of Mormon. In Second Nephi chapter 5, the original wording was: "Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness, and become a scourge unto the Nephites." The phrase "skin of blackness" was removed and became: "Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites." The second change appears in summary of Mormon chapter 5. Formerly, it included the phrase that "the Lamanites shall be a dark, filthy, and loathsome people". The new version deleted the phrase "dark, loathsome, and filthy" and now reads, "the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them." These changes are seen by critics to be another step in the evolution of the text of the Book of Mormon to delete racist language from it.

LDS BELIEFS. The Book of Mormon, published in 1830, addresses a major message to Native Americans. Its title page states that one reason it was written was so that Native Americans today might know "what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers."

The Book of Mormon tells that a small band of Israelites under Lehi migrated from Jerusalem to the Western Hemisphere about 600 B.C. Upon Lehi's death his family divided into two opposing factions, one under Lehi's oldest son, laman (see Lamanites), and the other under a younger son, Nephi 1. During the thousand-year history narrated in the Book of Mormon, Lehi's descendants went through several phases of splitting, warring, accommodating, merging, and splitting again. At first, just as God had prohibited the Israelites from intermarrying with the Canaanites in the ancient Promised Land (Ex. 34:16; Deut. 7:3), the Nephites were forbidden to marry the Lamanites with their dark skin (2 Ne. 5:23; Alma 3:8-9). But as large Lamanite populations accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and were numbered among the Nephites in the first century B.C., skin color ceased to be a distinguishing characteristic. After the visitations of the resurrected Christ, there were no distinctions among any kind of "ites" for some two hundred years. But then unbelievers arose and called themselves Lamanites to distinguish themselves from the Nephites or believers (4 Ne. 1:20).

The concluding chapters of the Book of Mormon describe a calamitous war. About A.D. 231, old enmities reemerged and two hostile populations formed (4 Ne. 1:35-39), eventually resulting in the annihilation of the Nephites. The Lamanites, from whom many present-day Native Americans descend, remained to inhabit the American continent. Peoples of other extractions also migrated there. The Book of Mormon contains many promises and prophecies about the future directed to these survivors. For example, Lehi's grandson Enos prayed earnestly to God on behalf of his kinsmen, the Lamanites. He was promised by the Lord that Nephite records would be kept so that they could be "brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation" (Enos 1:13).

The role of Native Americans in the events of the last days is noted by several Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi 1 prophesied that in the last days the Lamanites would accept the gospel and become a "pure and delightsome people" (2 Ne. 30:6). Likewise, it was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Lamanites will at some future time "blossom as the rose" (D&C 49:24).

After Jesus' resurrection in Jerusalem, he appeared to the more righteous Lamanites and Nephites left after massive destruction and prophesied that their seed eventually "shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity" (3 Ne. 21:5). He also stated that if any people "will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob [the descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples], unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance"; together with others of the house of Israel, they will build the New Jerusalem (3 Ne. 21:22-23). The Book of Mormon teaches that the descendants of Lehi are heirs to the blessings of Abraham (see Abrahamic Covenant) and will receive the blessings promised to the house of Israel.(BYU)

References:
Book of Mormon (LDS Church edition), "Introduction", stating that the Lamanites "are among the ancestors of the American Indians". Prior to 2007, the non-canonical introduction stated that the Lamanites were the "principal ancestors of the American Indians." Retrieved from: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/intr...n?lang=eng

"The Lamanites (Introduction)," Ensign, July 1971, p. 5. Retrieved from: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/07/the-l...n?lang=eng

Stewart, David G. Junior (2006), "DNA and the Book of Mormon”

Retrieved from: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Native_Americans


I already gave you information to the DNA issue previously, repeating myself is becoming tiring. I understand you are confused, misinformed, and misguided, but try to keep up dear. Here, for like the 4th time, here is the post where I laid out the DNA issue, and the typical counter arguments (wasn't that nice of me?) and the answers to those counter arguments...all the way back on page two, see here: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid824905

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 03:41 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 02:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Teaching you about your own religion is becoming tedious Alla.
goodwithoutgod, I didn't ask you to teach me LDS Doctrine.
But thanks anyway.
You didn't answer my question. You didn't tell me where the BoM claims that Native Americans are Hebrew.
(06-08-2015 02:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  According to the Book of Mormon, the family of Lehi (a wealthy Hebrew prophet), the family of Ishmael, and Zoram traveled from the Middle East circa 600 BC to the Americas by boat.
Please tell the name of the book in the BoM, chapter and verse/verses where there is a claim that Lehi was a Hebrew, that Zoram was a Hebrew, that Ishmael was a Hebrew.
(please do not make long post). I want only name of the book, chapter and verses.
Do you understand MY English?
back to you.Smile

English is my second language.
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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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06-08-2015, 04:01 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
I don't think she wants to have to think about what she reads at all.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/...elief.html

Quote:2 Nephi 4-5: Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness

Quote:The title to this post is taken from the official LDS summary for 2 Nephi 5 -- at least it was the official summary, until it was changed by the LDS church in December 2010. In the new revised version, the Lamanites (Native Americans) are no longer cursed by God with "a skin of blackness" for their unbelief, but are "cut off from the presence of the Lord."

Quote:According to the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites are descendants of Laman and Lemuel, two rebellious brothers of a family of Israelites who crossed the ocean in a ship around 600 BC. Their brother Nephi is portrayed as founding the rival Nephites


You know how religious types are. They like shit spelled out for them, GWG."

BTW, there are no "lost tribes" of Israel. About 10% of the population was relocated by the Assyrians to other parts of the Empire while a new upper class was sent in to take over. The other 90% stayed right where they were. And there is no evidence that they were anything other than normal-run-of-the-mill Canaanites, despite what the silly-assed bible claims.

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06-08-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 03:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  Do you understand MY English?

Well it is your third language after all.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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06-08-2015, 04:18 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 04:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 03:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  Do you understand MY English?

Well it is your third language after all.
yes, it is my third language after all.

English is my second language.
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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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06-08-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 03:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 02:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Teaching you about your own religion is becoming tedious Alla.
goodwithoutgod, I didn't ask you to teach me LDS Doctrine.
But thanks anyway.
You didn't answer my question. You didn't tell me where the BoM claims that Native Americans are Hebrew.
(06-08-2015 02:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  According to the Book of Mormon, the family of Lehi (a wealthy Hebrew prophet), the family of Ishmael, and Zoram traveled from the Middle East circa 600 BC to the Americas by boat.
Please tell the name of the book in the BoM, chapter and verse/verses where there is a claim that Lehi was a Hebrew, that Zoram was a Hebrew, that Ishmael was a Hebrew.
(please do not make long post). I want only name of the book, chapter and verses.
Do you understand MY English?
back to you.Smile

Oh but it is apparent you need it taught to you.

I have already posted that info, and completely eviscerated the DNA claim, and then I was so kind I even posted the most popular counter claims, and then dismantled them, and you counter is.........nothing.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 04:21 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Oh but it is apparent you need it taught to you.
I have already posted that info, and completely eviscerated the DNA claim, and then I was so kind I even posted the most popular counter claims, and then dismantled them, and you counter is.........nothing.

I would like to start our discussion about "DNA and BoM" with you naming books, chapters and verses where the BoM mentions word "Hebrew"
can you do this?

English is my second language.
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