Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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06-08-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 04:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 04:21 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Oh but it is apparent you need it taught to you.
I have already posted that info, and completely eviscerated the DNA claim, and then I was so kind I even posted the most popular counter claims, and then dismantled them, and you counter is.........nothing.

I would like to start our discussion about "DNA and BoM" with you naming books, chapters and verses where the BoM mentions word "Hebrew"
can you do this?

Sure,

Alma 10:3

3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

2 Nephi 30:4

4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

Speaking in the Salt Lake Tabernacle in 1881 Wilford Woodruff, who later became Mormonism's fourth president, stated, "The Lamanites, now a down-trodden people, are a remnant of the house of Israel. The curse of God has followed them as it has done the Jews, though the Jews have not been darkened in their skin as have the Lamanites" (Journal of Discourses 22:173).

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in his book Doctrines of Salvation that this connection is also noted in Doctrine and Covenants 3:264: "Not only in the Book of Mormon are the descendants of Lehi called Jews, but also in the Doctrine and Covenants. In section 19, this is found: 'Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.'"

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, under the subtitle "Native Americans," states that "the Book of Mormon tells that a small band of Israelites under Lehi migrated from Jerusalem to the Western Hemisphere about 600 B.C. Upon Lehi's death his family divided into two opposing factions, one under Lehi's oldest son, Laman (see Lamanites), and the other under a younger son, Nephi" (3:981).

How is that dear?

Ooooh look, there's more to it:

One of the fundamental tenets taught to Mormon children and new converts is that the Book of Mormon is an account of real people and real events. Mormon leaders, apologists, and scholars have been adamant in declaring the Book of Mormon to be actual history. Dr. Robert Millet, the well-respected professor at Brigham Young University, stated, "The historicity of the Book of Mormon record is crucial. We cannot exercise faith in that which is untrue, nor can 'doctrinal fiction' have normative value in our lives...Only scripture-­writings and events and descriptions from real people at a real point in time, people who were moved upon and directed by divine powers­-can serve as a revelatory channel, enabling us to hear and feel the word of God" ("The Book of Mormon, Historicity, and Faith," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies Vol. 2, number 2, p.1).

One of the claims made in the Book of Mormon is that it records the story of a Hebrew man named Lehi who sees in a vision the destruction of Jerusalem around 600 B.C. He then flees with his family to escape the impending onslaught of Babylonian conquerors and eventually sails to the Western hemisphere. Following the death of Lehi, circumstances led to the colonizers splitting into primarily two groups, known as Nephites and Lamanites. As the story goes, the exploits of the Nephites and Lamanites were recorded on gold plates that were ultimately buried in the ground and found by Joseph Smith several centuries later.

The Hebrew Connection

The introduction to the Book of Mormon states that the book is "holy scripture comparable to the Bible" and that it is a "record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas." Since 1981 this same introduction claimed that the Lamanites "are the principle ancestors of the American Indians." However, in 2007, the LDS Church changed the wording to say that Book of Mormon Lamanites are now merely "among the ancestors of the American Indians." Consider That sounds familiar...ah, that is because I have posted this info like 5 times. Rolleyes

The title page to the narrative states that the Book of Mormon is "an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi, and also of the Lamanite-- written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel." Gasp In an article written for the Mormon periodical Times and Seasons in 1842, Joseph Smith made it a point to mention "that the title page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated; the language of the whole running the same as all Hebrew writing in general; and that, said title page is not by any means a modern composition either of mine or of any other man's who has lived or does live in this generation" (3:943.)

Speaking in the Salt Lake Tabernacle in 1881 Wilford Woodruff, who later became Mormonism's fourth president, stated, "The Lamanites, now a down-trodden people, are a remnant of the house of Israel. The curse of God has followed them as it has done the Jews, though the Jews have not been darkened in their skin as have the Lamanites" (Journal of Discourses 22:173).

Mormon Apostle James Talmage noted that, "The Nephites suffered extinction about 400 A.D., but the Lamanites lived on in their degraded course, and are today extant upon the land as the American Indians" (Jesus the Christ, 23rd ed., p.49).

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in his book Doctrines of Salvation that this connection is also noted in Doctrine and Covenants 3:264: "Not only in the Book of Mormon are the descendants of Lehi called Jews, but also in the Doctrine and Covenants. In section 19, this is found: 'Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.'"

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, under the subtitle "Native Americans," states that "the Book of Mormon tells that a small band of Israelites under Lehi migrated from Jerusalem to the Western Hemisphere about 600 B.C. Upon Lehi's death his family divided into two opposing factions, one under Lehi's oldest son, Laman (see Lamanites), and the other under a younger son, Nephi" (3:981).

The Controversy

In the fall 1997 issue of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, LDS author Brigham Madsen discussed the difficulty that many Latter-day Saints are having with accepting the Book of Mormon as an historical document (Reflections on LDS Disbelief in the Book of Mormon as History). Many who have closely examined the contents of the book in light of scholarship have come to realize that it cannot possibly be true history. Madsen raised an interesting challenge in his article when he refers to the history and origins of the American Indian. He wrote, "...perhaps it can be anticipated that before long some scholar will examine the DNA of early inhabitants of eastern Siberia and the DNA of early American Indians for confirmation of their relationship. All that would be left would be for an interested Mormon to compare the two findings to the DNA of Israelites who lived about 600 B.C.E." (p. 91). It appears that the day of DNA confirmation has arrived.

The book American Apocrypha (Signature, 2002) contains an essay titled Lamanite, Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics. The essay's author, Thomas W. Murphy, is both a member of the Mormon Church and an anthropologist who offers information that conflict with traditional assumptions regarding the heritage of the Indians. He notes, "So far, DNA research has lent no support to the traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans. Instead, genetic data have confirmed that migrations from Asia are the primary source of American Indian origins" (pp. 47-48). He goes on to say, "While DNA shows that ultimately all human populations are closely related, to date no intimate genetic link has been found between ancient Israelites and indigenous Americans, much less within the time frame suggested in the Book of Mormon" (p.48).

Murphy cites the works of several experts in the field of anthropology and genetics, including that of Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist at the University of Kansas who said, "I don't think there is one iota of evidence that suggests a lost tribe from Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by ugly fact." Murphy says that Crawford's "work shows that Amerisraelite Lamanites could not possibly have been the 'principle ancestors of the American Indians,' as claimed in the current introduction to the Book of Mormon" (p.53). He also mentions Oxford geneticist Bryan Sykes and Russian geneticist Miroslav Derenko "who have substantiated Crawford's conclusion through agreement that 'the Indian gene pool is Siberian, not Middle Eastern'" (p.53).

In his essay, Murphy responds to some of the claims made by LDS apologetic groups such as the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, or FARMS (now known as The Neil Maxwell Institute), and The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR). On page 62 he says, "FARMS has played a role in offering revisionist interpretations that seek to reconcile faith with science. But the DNA research may make this effort more difficult as the views of intellectuals and those of traditional Mormons continue to diverge."

In response to an inquiry made to FARMS in 1997, I received the following from Dr. John Tvedtnes: "The most recent mitochondrial DNA study demonstrated that there were three known separate migrations to the New World, one certainly connected to Siberian peoples, the other thought to be Asian. Among Amerindians, samples were taken in Canada, the United States, and Peru. None were taken in Mesoamerica, where most LDS scholars believe the story of the Book of Mormon took place" (e-mail received 11/14/97).

Statements such as this would make it appear that there was still hope that research done in Mesoamerica (which includes countries like Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, and El Salvador) would offer the elusive connection. However, such research has been performed and no link has been established. Murphy states on page 62, "While FARMS researchers are careful to note the importance of cultural influences on the construction of categories, they express confidence in an Israelite genetic presence in Central America and perhaps as far away as Arizona to the north and Colombia to the south. As we have seen, genetic studies of indigenous peoples throughout North, Central, and South America have failed to link Native Americans from these locations to ancient Hebrews."

In 1997 I wrote to Scott Woodward, the renowned molecular biologist at Brigham Young University, to ask if any DNA studies had been done at BYU. He wrote me the following: "We have an active research project addressing some of these questions but most of the data is still too preliminary to make any hard conclusions. Most of all the evidence to date would point to Asian populations as the source of at least the great majority of contemporary Native American gene pool." In the same post, Dr. Woodward also stated that he believed "that the Americas were moderately populated at the time of arrival of the Lehi group, the Jaredites and any other group that may have come from the Middle East" (e-mail received 11/14/97).

According to Murphy's essay, it appears that Woodward is still not at all optimistic that a link will be found. Although Murphy notes how Woodward "believes that the presence or absence of genetic linkages to the Near East in the Americas is neither proof nor disproof of the Book of Mormon" (p. 66), on page 65 he says, "it would not surprise Woodward if geneticists ultimately failed to find any traces of mtDNA [mitochondrial DNA] from Lehi's party, Jaredites, or Mulekites."

While speaking on this subject at the 2002 Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City, Murphy cited others who have come to conclusions similar to his. For instance, Dr. David Glenn Smith, a molecular anthropologist from the University of California Davis, said, "Genetic research, particularly that using mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers, provide quite emphatic refutation of any such relationship between Jews and Native Americans."

Murphy closed his remarks by asking, "Now what do we as Mormons do? We've got a problem. Our beliefs are not validated by the science." Murphy believes that Mormons have a moral and ethical responsibility to relegate this notion as a "mistake of men."

uhoh

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 05:31 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(03-08-2015 04:55 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2:5 and the Book of Mormon states, “and it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.” As such, the Book of Mormon clearly states there was nobody there. And 600 BCE there was approximately several million Native American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it will be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. However, that scenario does not fit with what the Book of Mormon clearly states, and as per what the Mormon prophets have taught for over 175 years.

Ether 2:5 does NOT claim that " there never had man been" in Americas.
In Ether 2:5 they travel in the wilderness and there they build the barges so they can go to promised land. Ether does NOT claim that there were no people in the promised land.

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06-08-2015, 05:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 06:00 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 05:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-08-2015 04:55 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2:5 and the Book of Mormon states, “and it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.” As such, the Book of Mormon clearly states there was nobody there. And 600 BCE there was approximately several million Native American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it will be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. However, that scenario does not fit with what the Book of Mormon clearly states, and as per what the Mormon prophets have taught for over 175 years.

Ether 2:5 does NOT claim that " there never had man been" in Americas.
In Ether 2:5 they travel in the wilderness and there they build the barges so they can go to promised land. Ether does NOT claim that there were no people in the promised land.

The Book of Ether
Chapter 2
The Jaredites prepare for their journey to a promised land—It is a choice land whereon men must serve Christ or be swept off—The Lord talks to the brother of Jared for three hours—The Jaredites build barges—The Lord asks the brother of Jared to propose how the barges will be lighted.

1 And it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the friends of Jared and his brother and their families, went down into the valley which was northward, (and the name of the valley was Nimrod, being called after the mighty hunter) with their flocks which they had gathered together, male and female, of every kind.

2 And they did also lay snares and catch fowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.

3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

4 And it came to pass that when they had come down into the valley of Nimrod the Lord came down and talked with the brother of Jared; and he was in a cloud, and the brother of Jared saw him not.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been. And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a cloud, and gave directions whither they should travel.

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.

Retrieved from: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/2.5?lang=eng

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 05:34 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 05:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  Ether 2:5 does NOT claim that " there never had man been" in Americas.
In Ether 2:5 they travel in the wilderness and there they build the barges so they can go to promised land. Ether does NOT claim that there were no people in the promised land.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.

To be fair, that is rather difficult to parse and English is her third language.

#sigh
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06-08-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Your efforts to play word games isn’t fooling anyone alla.

The origin of groups described in the Book of Mormon

Statements regarding the Hebrew ancestry of Book of Mormon people

LDS Church leaders have long equated Amerindians with Lamanites. In the Doctrine and Covenants, revelations delivered by Joseph Smith refer to native people in the United States as "Lamanites". Smith reported that when the golden plates were revealed to him in New York, an angel told him that the plates contained "an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang." Brigham Young and other 19th-century church leaders generally equated Lamanites with the native Indians of the Americas.

In the October 1959 church general conference, apostle Spencer W. Kimball stated: "Millions of you have blood relatively unmixed with Gentiles. Columbus called you 'Indians,' thinking he had reached the East Indies. ... The Lord calls you 'Lamanites,' a name which has a pleasant ring, for many of the grandest people ever to live upon the earth were so called. In a limited sense, the name signifies the descendants of Laman and Lemuel, sons of your first American parent, Lehi; but you undoubtedly possess also the blood of the other sons, Sam, Nephi, and Jacob. And you likely have some Jewish blood from Mulek, son of Zedekiah, king of Judah (Hel. 6:10). ... You came from Jerusalem in its days of tribulation. You are of royal blood, a loved people of the Lord. In your veins flows the blood of prophets and statesmen".

Similarly, at a 1971 Lamanite Youth Conference, Kimball stated: "With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea". Ted E. Brewerton, a general authority of the LDS Church, stated in 1995: "Many migratory groups came to the Americas, but none was as important as the three mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The blood of these people flows in the veins of the Blackfoot and the Blood Indians of Alberta, Canada; in the Navajo and the Apache of the American Southwest; the Inca of western South America; the Aztec of Mexico; the Maya of Guatemala; and in other native American groups in the Western Hemisphere and the Pacific islands".

An introductory paragraph added to the Book of Mormon in the LDS Church's 1981 edition stated in part: "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." In a 2006 edition, the statement was altered to indicate that "the Lamanites ... are among the ancestors of the American Indians."

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 05:46 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 05:53 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 05:44 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 05:34 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.

To be fair, that is rather difficult to parse and English is her third language.

Fair point, I keep forgetting there may be a language barrier on top of the blind faith, bad combo.

I know the angle she is trying, playing semantics, doesn't change the facts though, no matter how much she tap dances. I think it is very telling that she is forced to play word games to counter the evidence. I hope those that are watching can see how transparent and desperate her assertions are.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 01:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 06:57 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Apparently you didn't bother to read, I will link you to the post, if one doesn't read, and apply critical thinking skills, one doesn't learn.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825859


Would the DNA of Lehi and his followers have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival to America?

sigh...

Next, let us examine the claim that the genetic gene pool was somehow diluted to the point where we should not expect to find a Hebrew link.

The Book of Mormon gives the impression that the Nephites and Lamanite populations were anything but small. Helaman 3:8 in the Book of Mormon states, "And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east." In commenting on this passage, the Book of Mormon Student Manual, published by the LDS Church, notes, "No one knows the details of Book of Mormon geography. But the Prophet Joseph Smith revealed some information that suggests that at some time in their history the spread of the Nephites unto the 'land northward' included what we know today as North America" (1979 edition, p.354). This coincides with Doctrine and Covenants 54:8, which states that the borders of the Lamanites extended to the "land of Missouri."

Mormon 1:7 adds, "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea." A footnote at the bottom of the page dates this passage at around A.D. 322.

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt believed that the Lamanites "gathered by the millions" at the battle of Hill Cumorah! (Journal of Discourses 17:31.) Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie agreed with this assessment when he wrote, "Neither the Nephites nor the Jaredites repented when rivers of blood flowed on their battlefields and millions of their number were slain by the sword" (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 386 –387, emphasis mine).

It could be argued that the battle at Hill Cumorah severely diminished the population of remaining Lamanites. However, this does not seem to be the position of some LDS leaders. For instance, tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith let it be known that the Lamanite influence was not restricted to North America. "The history of this American continent also gives evidence that the Lamanites have risen up in their anger and vexed the Gentiles. This warfare may not be over. It has been the fault of people in the United States to think that this prophetic saying has reference to the Indians in the United States, but we must remember that there are millions of the 'remnant' in Mexico, Central and South America" (Church History and Modern Revelation 2:127, emphasis mine).

Speaking in conference in October 1921, Elder Andrew Jenson, a member of the staff of the LDS Church's Historian's Office, stated, "We, therefore cast a glance southward into old Mexico and through the great countries beyond -- down through Central America and South America, where there are millions and millions of Lamanites, direct descendants of Father Lehi." (Conference Reports, October 1921, p.120, emphasis mine).

On page 601 of The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, the twelfth Mormon prophet stated, "About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents".

Probably the most damning quote that undermines this notion that the Lamanite genetic link could have been lost to the point of nonexistence is found on page 596 of the same book. Kimball wrote, "Lamanites share a royal heritage. I should like to address my remarks to you, our kinsmen of the isles of the sea and the Americas. Millions of you have blood relatively unmixed with gentile nations" (emphasis mine).

The obvious question is, "How do you lose the genetic link of millions of people who allegedly have not mixed their blood with another people group?" Notice also that Kimball refers to the "kinsmen of the isles of the sea." LDS leader have taught that the Lamanites were not restricted to merely the western hemisphere. In a message given in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 11, 1872, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, "Here let me say again, according to the Book of Mormon, many of those great islands that are found in the Indian Ocean, also in the great Pacific Sea, have been planted with colonies of Israelites. Do they not resemble each other? Go to the Sandwich Islands, to the South Sea Islands, to Japan--go to the various islands of the Pacific Ocean, and you find a general resemblance in the characters and countenances of the people. Who are they? According to the Book of Mormon, Israelites were scattered forth from time to time, and colonies planted on these islands of the ocean" (Journal of Discourses 14:333).

But nice try Alla, what else you got?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2015, 06:20 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 01:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  Would the DNA of Lehi and his followers have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival to America?

No. DNA analysis is very advanced and can pinpoint ancestral origins dating back thousands of years quite accurately.
There is absolutely no trace of haplogroups related to the ANE in any Amerind populations.

Quote:Book of Mormon is smarter than ANY Prophet of God.
back to you, my friend

The BoM is made-up tripe by a charlatan.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-08-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 05:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Sure,

Alma 10:3

3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

"came out of the land of Jerusalem" - it doesn't say that Lehi was a Hebrew.
Are only Hebrew lived in the land of Jerusalem?

Lehi was descendant of Manasseh. That's all. Manasseh is not very pure blood.
Manasseh's descendants were scattered only God knows were. Only God knows what kind of different bloods were in Lehi's veins. Do you know? Because I don't.
Is far, far ancestor Manasseh the only ancestor of Lehi?
(06-08-2015 05:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  2 Nephi 30:4
4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

descendants of the Jews. Does it say that the Jews are the only their ancestors?
I believe that my ancestor is Joseph. Does it mean that there is no other blood in my veins? Is the such thing as PURE Jew, or PURE Josephite, or PURE Manasehite?

If I say that I have Jew ancestors it doesn't mean they are the only ancestors.


Introduction to the BoM:
the Lamanites..are the principle ancestors of the American Indians."

WHAT are the Lamanites or WHO are the Lamanites according to the BoM?
Are the Lamanites only those who are descendants of Lehi? Or the Lamanites are something/somebody else according to the BoM?

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06-08-2015, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 06:56 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(06-08-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 05:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Sure,

Alma 10:3

3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

"came out of the land of Jerusalem" - it doesn't say that Lehi was a Hebrew.
Are only Hebrew lived in the land of Jerusalem?

Lehi was descendant of Manasseh. That's all. Manasseh is not very pure blood.
Manasseh's descendants were scattered only God knows were. Only God knows what kind of different bloods were in Lehi's veins. Do you know? Because I don't.
Is far, far ancestor Manasseh the only ancestor of Lehi?
(06-08-2015 05:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  2 Nephi 30:4
4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

descendants of the Jews. Does it say that the Jews are the only their ancestors?
I believe that my ancestor is Joseph. Does it mean that there is no other blood in my veins? Is the such thing as PURE Jew, or PURE Josephite, or PURE Manasehite?

If I say that I have Jew ancestors it doesn't mean they are the only ancestors.


Introduction to the BoM:
the Lamanites..are the principle ancestors of the American Indians."

WHAT are the Lamanites or WHO are the Lamanites according to the BoM?
Are the Lamanites only those who are descendants of Lehi? Or the Lamanites are something/somebody else according to the BoM?

Blink

Facepalm

oh......my.......Norrg.....the stupid is strong in this one. Do you even read what you write?

lol

""came out of the land of Jerusalem" - it doesn't say that Lehi was a Hebrew.
Are only Hebrew lived in the land of Jerusalem?"


Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in his book Doctrines of Salvation that this connection is also noted in Doctrine and Covenants 3:264: "Not only in the Book of Mormon are the descendants of Lehi called Jews, but also in the Doctrine and Covenants. In section 19, this is found: 'Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.'"

You do understand what a DESCENDENT is right dear?

Descendant, a consanguinous (i.e. biological) relative directly related to a person.

It is YOUR delusional religion which made the claim, you can wiggle and giggle all you want, and make preposterous child like excuses, but the facts are the facts.

"Do you know? Because I don't"

it is apparent child there is a LOT you don't know, and with every post, you prove that.

why don't you explain to us who you think the Lamanites are? Laughat

You know, I don't even have to deluge you with more facts, all I have to do is point to your last post....your ineducable and epic level of ineptitude doesn't require debunking, you debunk yourself. The only person reading this that doesn't realize this is you.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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