Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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07-08-2015, 07:55 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC GREAT SURPRISE

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-genetics/


..............

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07-08-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 07:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  Book of Mormon is much smarter than Joseph Smith.
Book of Mormon is much smarter than any Prophet of God

Book of Mormon is piece of crap written by a lying criminal charlatan.
Book of Morons is dumber than dogshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-08-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Question for Alla: was the Jesus that appeared to the Natives the white one that I have seen depicted? I have only a remedial knowledge of Mormonism but in all of the paintings that I have seen depicting Jesus appearing to the Native Americans, he was caucasian.
This is very good question for artists.
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Don't you think that the natives would have recorded this in song or something that a white guy appeared out of nowhere?
I don't remember now where I read it(but I will try to find) that some Native American tribes have a legend that long time ago their fathers were visited by white bearded God who came dawn from the sky(heaven).
Jesus?

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07-08-2015, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2015 08:23 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 07:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC GREAT SURPRISE

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-genetics/


..............

Read more closely, Alla. They're saying that the group which became most of Western Europe split off from the group in central/northern Russia which appears to have largely peopled the Americas, starting 13,000 years ago.

This was first suspected when skulls in the Pacific Northwest were found which had European (oval-shaped) braincases, compared to the circular shape in most Native American and Asian derived gene pools, back in the early 1990s.

If you look at the NGP map, you can see the (two) arrows which show migration across the Bering Land Bridge into Alaska and then down into the Americas... one comes from central Russia--and splits to head east toward Europe and also west toward Alaska--while the other arrow shows the group that migrated up the east coast of Asia.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.c...n-journey/

(East-traveling group)
Haplogroups: A, B2, X, Q
Inland Across Asia and to the Americas

Early humans embarking on this route traveled inland across Asia. While many of them settled there, this line continued. It is believed that they crossed a temporary land bridge that connected Asia and present-day Alaska during the last ice age to settle in the Americas. Descendants of this lineage include part of the pre-Columbian population of both North and South America.



(West-traveling group)
Haplogroups: H, U, W, R
From Central Asia Into Europe

This migration brought early humans into western and Central Asia, where they then turned west and crossed the grasslands of southern Russia into Europe. There, they encountered Neanderthals and practiced a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. The subsequent interbreeding between Neanderthals and early modern humans has resulted in traces of Neanderthal DNA in many people today.


Edit to add: If you look almost directly over the final "a" of the word "Central Asia" on the map, you'll see where the migratory split occurred. If you click on the arrows themselves, they'll show you the details of that set of haplogroups. Note that nothing on the map indicates people going to the Americas by boat from the modern (as in, within the last 3000 years) Mideast, as the Mormon stories claim.

The legend to which you're referring is the Spanish telling of the story of Quetzlcoatl, a god of the Aztec pantheon, which according to the Spanish was unfortunate for the Aztecs, resulting in many of them thinking that Cortez was the returning embodiment of their god, leading to a great many deaths and a huge advantage for the Spanish. However, modern scholars strongly doubt the "legend of the white god", since it appears in none of the pre-Conquistador Aztec codices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

"Since the sixteenth century, it has been widely held that the Aztec Emperor Moctezuma II initially believed the landing of Hernán Cortés in 1519 to be Quetzalcoatl's return. This view has been questioned by ethno-historians who argue that the Quetzalcoatl-Cortés connection is not found in any document that was created independently of post-Conquest Spanish influence, and that there is little proof of a pre-Hispanic belief in Quetzalcoatl's return. Most documents expounding this theory are of entirely Spanish origin, such as Cortés's letters to Charles V of Spain, in which Cortés goes to great pains to present the naive gullibility of the Aztecs in general as a great aid in his conquest of Mexico.

Much of the idea of Cortés' being seen as a deity can be traced back to the Florentine Codex written down some 50 years after the conquest. In the Codex's description of the first meeting between Moctezuma and Cortés, the Aztec ruler is described as giving a prepared speech in classical oratorial Nahuatl, a speech which, as described in the codex written by the Franciscan Bernardino de Sahagún and his Tlatelolcan informants, included such prostrate declarations of divine or near-divine admiration..."

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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07-08-2015, 08:12 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Question for Alla: was the Jesus that appeared to the Natives the white one that I have seen depicted? I have only a remedial knowledge of Mormonism but in all of the paintings that I have seen depicting Jesus appearing to the Native Americans, he was caucasian.
This is very good question for artists.
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Don't you think that the natives would have recorded this in song or something that a white guy appeared out of nowhere?
I don't remember now where I read it(but I will try to find) that some Native American tribes have a legend that long time ago their fathers were visited by white bearded God who came dawn from the sky(heaven).
Jesus?

Dumbledore

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07-08-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Additionally, as far as I am aware, the BoM also says that the tribes here and in South America had steel when in fact they didn't. (Certianly correct me if I am wrong if it doesn't say that)

How could Laban have a steel sword in 600 B.C.? There was no steel then. (And what about Nephi's steel bow?)

The Book of Mormon mentions a steel sword owned by a military leader named Laban in Jerusalem near 600 B.C., a time when many people believe steel had not yet been discovered. Laban's sword had a hilt of pure gold, a blade "of the most precious steel," and exhibited "exceedingly fine" workmanship (1 Nephi 4:9). An excellent discussion of Laban's sword of steel is offered by Matthew Roper in his article "On Cynics and Swords" in FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 9, No. 1, 1997, pp. 146-158. On pages 148-149, he notes that many critics point to Nephi's description of Laban's sword as evidence against the historicity of the Book of Mormon:


"Steel," it is argued, "was not known to man in those days" [Stuart Martin, The Mystery of Mormonism (London: Odhams, 1920) p. 44]. Today, however, it is increasingly apparent that the practice of "steeling" iron through deliberate carburization was well-known in the Near Eastern world from which the Lehi colony emerged. "It seems evident that by the beginning of the tenth century B.C. blacksmiths were intentionally steeling iron" [Robert Maddin, James D. Muhly, and Tamara S. Wheeler, "How the Iron Age Began," Scientific American 237/4 (October 1977): 127]. A carburized iron knife dating to the twelfth century B.C. is known from Cyprus [Ibid. The knife shows evidence of quenching. See Tamara S. Wheeler and Robert Maddin, "Metallurgy and Ancient Man," in The Coming Age of Iron (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1980), 121]. In addition to this,

A site on Mt. Adir in northern Israel has yielded an iron pick in association with 12th-century pottery. One would hesitate to remove a sample from the pick for analysis, but it has been possible to test the tip of it for hardness. The readings averaged 38 on the Rockwell "C" scale of hardness. This is a reading characteristic of modern hardened steel [Maddin, Muhly, and Wheeler, "How the Iron Age Began," p. 127].

The importance of this find is echoed by Amihai Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible: 10,000 - 586 B.C.E., New York: Doubleday, 1990, p. 361:

A pick found in the eleventh century B.C.E. fortress at Har Adir in the Upper Galilee is the earliest known iron implement made of real steel produced by carbonizing, quenching, and tempering. This technological revolution opened the way for the widespread use of iron.

Quenching, another method of steeling iron, was also known to Mediterranean blacksmiths during this period. "By the beginning of the seventh century B.C. at the latest the blacksmiths of the eastern Mediterranean had mastered the processes that make iron a useful material for tools and weapons: carburizing and quenching" [Maddin, Muhly, and Wheeler, 131]. Archaeologists recently discovered a carburized iron sword near Jericho. The sword, which had a bronze haft, was one meter long and dates to the time of King Josiah, who would likely have been a contemporary of Lehi [Hershel Shanks, "Antiquities Director Confronts Problems and Controversies," Biblical Archaeology Review 12/4 (July-August 1986): 33,35]. Hershel Shanks recently described the find as "spectacular" since it is the only complete sword of its size and type from this period yet discovered in Israel [Ibid., 33]. Such discoveries lend a greater sense of historicity to Nephi's passing comments in the Book of Mormon.

As we learn from Matthew Roper in "Laban's Sword of 'Most Precious Steel' (Howlers #5) on the FAIR Blog (2013), the sword found near Jericho mentioned above is now displayed at Jerusalem's Israel Museum (a photo of the sword is included in an article by Roper for the Maxwell Institute), and the sign on the display reads:


This rare and exceptionally long sword, which was discovered on the floor of a building next to the skeleton of a man, dates to the end of the First Temple period. The sword is 1.05 m. long (!) and has a double edged blade, with a prominent central ridge running along its entire length.

The hilt was originally inlaid with a material that has not survived, most probably wood. Only the nails that once secured the inlays to the hilt can still be seen. The sword's sheath was also made of wood, and all that remains of it is its bronze tip. Owing to the length and weight of the sword, it was probably necessary to hold it with two hands. The sword is made of iron hardened into steel, attesting to substantial metallurgical know-how. Over the years, it has become cracked, due to corrosion.

While some critics continue to regurgitate old misunderstandings about the development of ancient metallurgical technology, recent research has made things much more interesting and made the mention of steel by Nephi much less problematic and actually more indicative of the ancient setting of the Book of Mormon.

For further general information on ancient steel, at Google Books, you can preview Iron and Steel in Ancient Times by Vagn Fabritius Buchwald (Volume 29 of Historisk-filosofiske Skrifter, Det Kongelige Danske Videnskabernes Selskab, Copenhagen, Denmark, 2005) to find interesting information. For example, on page 72, we read:


In the Homerian epic the Odyssey we have an exceptional hint at the blacksmith's cunning treatment of steel, when Odysseus with his men blinded the one-eyed Cyclops Polythemus. "And as when a smith dips a great adze in cold water amid loud hissing to temper it--for therefrom comes the strength of iron--even so did his eye his around the stake of olive-wood" (Odyssey, 9. song: 391. translated by A.T. Murray, Loeb Classical Library).

The archaic period described in the Odyssean narrative is difficult to fit in time, since the Odyssey is a conglomerate of tales, first edited and issues as a total of 24 songs in the 4th century B.C. However, the general scarcity of iron and the common references to weapons of bronze point to the 8th or 7th centuries. No doubt, quench-hardening of steel as described in the epic had been well known for centuries before the poem was conceived. Hardening was, however, restricted to tools, particularly to knives, files, and chisels, only occasionally including a dagger, a sword or an axe.

Thus, the ancient book, The Odyssey, apparently refers to steel manufacturing that was known in the Mediterranean region well before the time of Lehi. Hardened steel was not common, though, and was used for only a few objects, including an occasional sword. A steel sword in Nephi's day may indeed have been rare, but known, and thus it is entirely plausible for the Book of Mormon to mention a sword of a significant and wealthy military leaders that was made of "the most precious steel" (1 Nephi 4:9). Not the whole sword, but the blade, where hard steel would be especially desirable.

2012 update: Also see "The Heart of Steel: A Metallurgical Interpretation of Iron In Homer" (PDF file) by Ruth Russo, Whitman College which gets into the details of the different forms of iron and apparently steel mentioned by Homer. This is a beautifully written scholarly examination of some intriguing details in Homer that illustrates the importance of steel in the ancient world, and points to the plausibility of a precious steel sword in Laban's day. Here is an important excerpt:


Steel

These iron treasures are so valuable that it is possible they depict not wrought iron, but carburized iron. In the case of the grizzled, gray objects, it seems unlikely, for another type of iron appears in the Homeric texts: aithôn sidêros--the gleaming or shining iron more resembling flashing steel. Athena adopts the guise of a sailor trading copper for "gleaming iron" (Od. 1:182). In the Iliad, Telemonian Ajax cuts down Simoisius with shining iron (4:485). "Gleaming iron" is brought to a feast, along with bronze, cattle, and slaves (7:472). Finally, Hector vows to fight Achilles, even if Achilles' rage be "burnished iron" (20:371). Aithôn sidêros has the appearance of steel and could be what is referred to by the formula "polukmêtos te sidêros" (hard wrought iron), since steel, while toilsome to produce, makes a far superior weapon than simple wrought iron. Archaeological evidence indicates that the advent of consistent, deliberate steeling of iron occurred by 1000 B.C.E., and that production of carburized iron objects increased rapidly after 900 B.C.E. (22). Thus it is likely that audiences hearing the Homeric poems at any time after the 9th C B.C.E. would be able to distinguish the three principal types of iron as well as, or better than, modern readers (23)....

Archaeological sites in the Mediterranean show evidence of centuries of experimentation with iron during the era of merging of the Homeric texts, resulting eventually in a "broadly based iron economy" (30) with highly skilled artisans. The high regard given to such artisans is implied in two Homeric scenes in which royal or divine metal workers bring the tools of ironworking to fashion precious metals (7). In Odyssey 3:432-435, Nestor's goldsmith assembles hammer, anvil, and tongs to gild the horns of a sacrificial ox, when simply wrapping the horns with gold leaf would do. In Iliad 18:468-477, Hephaestus fashions Achilles' arms and armor out of gold, bronze, and tin, using impressive but superfluous ironworking tools. If the association of ironworking with royal sacrifice and divine artistry is intentional, the honor given to ironworking in these passages is due to recognition of the exceedingly useful nature of steel, the wondrous technology of its production, or both. Certainly, the association of ironworking with religious ritual is not confined to the Homeric poems. The location of 10th C B.C.E. iron artifacts from Taanach, in Palestine, suggests that smithing or repair of iron objects had a sacred dimension (12), resulting perhaps from some mystical understanding of the metal or from the simple desire of those in power to control a lucrative product.

The ancients in Nephi's day had the ability to carburize iron, but that does not mean that iron or steel was commonly available. The steel of Laban's sword was "most precious," clearly not a commodity item. In fact, subsequent appearances of iron in the Book of Mormon rate it with precious metals and riches rather than treating it as an ordinary material, as if metallurgical skills were largely lost in Nephite culture sometime after Nephi's era.

Indeed, the mystical and sacred aspects of iron working and steel, discussed by Ruth Russo in more detail in her article cited above, and its rare and precious nature in Nephi's day, are consistent with the sword of Laban being a sacred artifact and with the precious nature of iron in the Book of Mormon. It seems that this would not be something Joseph Smith would have derived from his environment in the 1800s.

Ancient iron often had carbon levels around 0.05% to 1%, especially when it was in contact with charcoal during manufacturing. That is consistent with typical definitions of carbon steel (an iron-carbon alloy with about 0.05 to 2% carbon), so it may be appropriate to call such iron "steel"--especially if it has been carburized or otherwise treated to increase its strength. But iron or low-carbon steel rusts easily and is rarely preserved for archeologists to find. And for a long time, it was known but rare or precious, and thus unlikely to be left lying around for easy discovery centuries later. This contributes to the many gaps in our understanding of metals in the ancient world. Nevertheless, there is enough evidence now of steel making before Laban's time that his ownership of a sword with a blade of "the most precious steel" should no longer be a sticking point for those exploring the Book of Mormon. In light of what we know now, it's a subtle statement of great plausibility--the kind of thing that now has to be discounted as just a lucky guess.

Another excellent work on the history of iron and steel in ancient times comes from Cleyton Cramer in the essay, "What Caused The Iron Age?." He reviews the precious nature of iron during the Bronze Age and shows that it was used largely for precious ornamentation, including ceremonial tools and weapons, before the rise of the Iron Age, and later became more utilitarian while bronze still dominated. Here is one excerpt:

The development of steel, of course, made iron production essential. Indeed, 1200 BC is a commonly accepted date not only for the start of the Iron Age, but also for the discovery of carburization of iron. While the location of this discovery remains uncertain, it appears that in the Hittite kingdom, a blacksmith discovered how to make steel by heating iron in contact with carbon. But the production of steel was probably quite random at first. Throughout the eastern Mediterranean area in the first two centuries of the Iron Age, iron weapons appear alongside bronze weapons, with no evidence that iron provided any military advantage over bronze weapons.

Cramer interprets evidence from archaeological finds to point to a copper shortage as the driving force that led to the iron age and the need for further development of steel as a metal equivalent or superior to bronze for utilitarian purposes. But there should be no question that carburized iron or steel, perhaps accidentally discovered, not well understood, and thus particularly valuable when it turned out well, was known in Laban's day and was used ir precious artifacts such as ceremonial weapons.

Incidentally, a photo of a gold-hilted sword with a blade made of meteoric iron is available in Volume 3 of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism under the article, "Sword of Laban." The sword comes from the tomb of Tutankhamun, who died in 1325 B.C., over 700 years before Nephi saw the sword of Laban. For more information on the ancient use of iron and steel prior to Nephi's time, see Oleg D. Sherby and Jeffrey Wadsworth, "Damascus Steels," Scientific American 252 (February 1985): 112-20; J. P. Lepre, The Egyptian Pyramids: A Comprehensive Illustrated Reference (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 1990), 245; Immanuel Velikovsky, Ramses II and His Time (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1978), 222-37.

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07-08-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 07:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC GREAT SURPRISE

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-genetics/


..............

And that in no way supports the bullshit story of the Mormons. Did you even read it?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-08-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 07:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC GREAT SURPRISE

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-genetics/


..............

Read more closely, Alla. They're saying that the group which became most of Western Europe split off from the group in central/northern Russia which appears to have largely peopled the Americas, starting 13,000 years ago.

This was first suspected when skulls in the Pacific Northwest were found which had European (oval-shaped) braincases, compared to the circular shape in most Native American and Asian derived gene pools, back in the early 1990s.

If you look at the NGP map, you can see the (two) arrows which show migration across the Bering Land Bridge into Alaska and then down into the Americas... one comes from central Russia--and splits to head east toward Europe and also west toward Alaska--while the other arrow shows the group that migrated up the east coast of Asia.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.c...n-journey/

(East-traveling group)
Haplogroups: A, B2, X, Q
Inland Across Asia and to the Americas

Early humans embarking on this route traveled inland across Asia. While many of them settled there, this line continued. It is believed that they crossed a temporary land bridge that connected Asia and present-day Alaska during the last ice age to settle in the Americas. Descendants of this lineage include part of the pre-Columbian population of both North and South America.



(West-traveling group)
Haplogroups: H, U, W, R
From Central Asia Into Europe

This migration brought early humans into western and Central Asia, where they then turned west and crossed the grasslands of southern Russia into Europe. There, they encountered Neanderthals and practiced a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. The subsequent interbreeding between Neanderthals and early modern humans has resulted in traces of Neanderthal DNA in many people today.

Exam. Professor gave to the students sheet with test questions.
Student looked at the questions and asked:

Student: professor, these are the same questions that we had last year.
Professor: yes, questions are the same but answers are different.
Science discover many new and exciting things. I will wait until they find that there were migrations much much later.
Until they find I have no reason to reject BoM. I have too many reasons to accept it.

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07-08-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 07:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC GREAT SURPRISE

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-genetics/


..............

And that in no way supports the bullshit story of the Mormons. Did you even read it?

Did I say that it supports BoM? Did I even try to prove something about truthfulness of the BoM?
do you undeRRRstand my English?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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07-08-2015, 08:31 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 08:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Read more closely, Alla. They're saying that the group which became most of Western Europe split off from the group in central/northern Russia which appears to have largely peopled the Americas, starting 13,000 years ago.

This was first suspected when skulls in the Pacific Northwest were found which had European (oval-shaped) braincases, compared to the circular shape in most Native American and Asian derived gene pools, back in the early 1990s.

If you look at the NGP map, you can see the (two) arrows which show migration across the Bering Land Bridge into Alaska and then down into the Americas... one comes from central Russia--and splits to head east toward Europe and also west toward Alaska--while the other arrow shows the group that migrated up the east coast of Asia.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.c...n-journey/

(East-traveling group)
Haplogroups: A, B2, X, Q
Inland Across Asia and to the Americas

Early humans embarking on this route traveled inland across Asia. While many of them settled there, this line continued. It is believed that they crossed a temporary land bridge that connected Asia and present-day Alaska during the last ice age to settle in the Americas. Descendants of this lineage include part of the pre-Columbian population of both North and South America.



(West-traveling group)
Haplogroups: H, U, W, R
From Central Asia Into Europe

This migration brought early humans into western and Central Asia, where they then turned west and crossed the grasslands of southern Russia into Europe. There, they encountered Neanderthals and practiced a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. The subsequent interbreeding between Neanderthals and early modern humans has resulted in traces of Neanderthal DNA in many people today.

Exam. Professor gave to the students sheet with test questions.
Student looked at the questions and asked:

Student: professor, these are the same questions that we had last year.
Professor: yes, questions are the same but answers are different.
Science discover many new and exciting things. I will wait until they find that there were migrations much much later.
Until they find I have no reason to reject BoM. I have too many reasons to accept it.

WHAT!?! This is not a matter of "changing answers"... this is how DNA haplogroup-tracing works. We know from mitochondrial lineages and other non-coding (and thus not affected by rapid changes like Natural Selection) regions of the genome what groups were where, and for how long. You can read it in the DNA as plainly as the words of a golden tablet, which is how the National Genographic Project got started in the first place!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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