Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-08-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Wasn't Joseph smith also convicted of fraud for trying to pull of that mystic reading thing to find water? In fact I recall he tried the same methodology shtick to worm some other folks out of their money.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like natachan's post
03-08-2015, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 04:43 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(03-08-2015 03:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-08-2015 03:25 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I havent even delved into the DNA issue yet, but I will. I am awaiting our mormon member to challenge my posit, a decision she will soon regret. Yes
I don't believe that I will regret. But I believe you will give up on me first. This is what happens when I decide to get involved in this kind of discussion.
(03-08-2015 03:25 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Usually we dismiss third-hand accounts in our research, believing them to usually be very unreliable.
Good because I do the same.
(03-08-2015 03:25 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  However, this account is substantiated by other sources. For example, in the early LDS publication Times and Seasons for December 15, 1840 (Vol.2 pg. 241), Oliver Cowdery stated specifically that Joseph Smith, Jr. was 17 at the time of the first vision - specifically placing the year of the vision in 1823. And in at least seven other places in the Journal of Discourses, early LDS leaders shared that it was only an unidentified angel that visited Joseph, not God and Jesus (2:171, 196, 197; 10:127; 13:78, 324; 20:167).
Brigham Young even stated specifically that the Lord did not visit young Joseph. In reference to this vision he said "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven...But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun...and informed him that he should not join any of the religions of the day, for they were all wrong;..." (Journal of Discourses 2:171).
Journal of Discourses or Times and Seasons.
1)Who says that those sources can not have errors? wrong personal opinions?
Even Scriptures may have some errors according to LDS belief.
2)Once I had a dream(a vision). Once in a while I shared this vision with some people. Sometimes I forgot to tell some details. Later I would say to myself: "Oh, I forgot to mention this"
Sometimes I didn't feel like sharing some details.
How many different accounts of the First Vision are written by the hand of Joseph Smith?

I have to leave now. I didn't watch the video, yet. But I will do it.
back to you. Please don't give up first. Smile

lol. Still awaiting your counter to the first post, and then after you watch the video, read this as well.....

The book of Mormon is one of the most solidly debunked religious holy books known to man, outside of Scientology of course. According to the Book of Mormon, a “lost tribe of Israel” migrated to the Americas in 600 BCE. The introduction to the Book of Mormon tells a wild tale of the Lamanites, which apparently were “the principal ancestors of the American Indians.” The Lamanites supposedly lapsed into apostasy, but Joseph Smith claimed he had been shown magical golden tablets bearing their story by special angel named Moroni. Joseph Smith went on to state that he was able to translate these tablets in 1823 from an unknown language called Reformed Egyptian… Thus creating the Book of Mormon.

Mormons assert that they are the true remnant of the Christian church, the one true church. I’m sure this surprises no one, as every strain of Christian delusion claims to be the one true church. Leaders of the Mormon church initially hoped that genetic research would validate their beliefs. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. So far, no support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the DNA data. Native American researcher Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist from the University of Kansas, “I don’t think there is one iota of evidence to suggest a lost tribe of Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by an ugly fact.” Current genetic research indicates that today’s Native American people dissented from Asia, not from European or Jewish stock.

Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2:5 and the Book of Mormon states, “and it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.” As such, the Book of Mormon clearly states there was nobody there. And 600 BCE there was approximately several million Native American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it will be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. However, that scenario does not fit with what the Book of Mormon clearly states, and as per what the Mormon prophets have taught for over 175 years.

Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. We know a great deal about the DNA lineages of living Israelites and living Israelites are descended from dead Israelites who lived 2600 years ago. Israelite DNA lineages belong to the same family groups found in European populations. These are the H, I, J, K, N, T, U, V, W and X groups. Essentially all Europeans and Israelites possess one of these lineages. In fact many other Middle Eastern populations such as the Syrians, Egytpians, Lebanese and other Arabic groups have similar DNA lineages. There is a smattering (<0.4%) of European lineages in American Indian populations but scientists justifiably assume they arrived after Columbus. They are most common in tribes that had greater impact with Europeans (North American); they are not common in Mesoamerica, the only “plausible” site for the Book of Mormon; and the lineages found so far are most common in Western European populations such as Spain.

Yet another counter argument from Mormon apologists is that mitochondrial DNA only tells us about one ancestral line out of many. If we go back 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in 1024 of our ancestors. If we go back another 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in over a million of our ancestors. You have to give them credit for trying. But, this is a specious argument that has been quite popular among the apologists lately. It is a clever ruse, which on the surface looks sound, but which is based in deception. The vast majority of mitochondrial lineages found throughout the world can be grouped into less than 25 families, represented by letters such as A, H, X etc. If we look at American Indians, essentially 100% of their mitochondrial lineages fall into one of 5 families; A, B, C, D or X which were not derived from Israel. So 20 generations back, we are not talking about millions of unknowable mitochondrial lineages in an American Indian’s pedigree chart. We are talking about 5 that occupy virtually all of those millions of ancestral slots. Essentially all of those lineages, even those that end up in males and are not passed on, clearly must have belonged to the 5 lineage families. It is possible that some lineages may have not been detected yet or have been lost in time through chance, but these would have been very rare lineages.

Another misguided counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the X lineage could be evidence for Israelite ancestry. Nice try, however, Native American Indian X lineages are descended from common ancestors who lived over 20,000 years ago in Asia. American Indian X lineages are even more distantly related to Israelite or European X lineages. In fact, most Israelite X lineage are now grouped in a different family, the N family, because they are so different to Asian and American X lineages. The X lineage has been found in ancient remains that pre-date the Book of Mormon period.

A final counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the wives of the early Book of Mormon colonists (Sariah etc or even the Jaredite women) may have brought the A,B,C,D and X lineages to the Americas. The stupid it burns, it truly does. The amount of DNA variation found in all 5 American Indian female DNA lineage families is sufficient to indicate that they have been present in the Americas for at least 15,000 years, possibly longer. This predates the existence of Israel by many thousands of years. Of course it is possible (but exceedingly unlikely) that several Asian woman carrying Asian lineages travelled to Israel where they intermarried with the ancestors of the Lehites and Mulekites, and that some Native American A, B, C D or X lineages came from them. What are the odds that this absolutely remarkable scenario actually happened in reality? I guess everything is possible for the Lord, but again it leaves me feeling less than kind thoughts about a God who could allow this to happen, knowing how much it would trick people. Why don’t we see these Asian lineages among Middle Eastern populations? The truth usually lies in the simplest explanation.

So in summary, an exhaustive and conclusionary analysis of the inconvenient problem of DNA evidence that completely eviscerates the Mormon story, as per the Book of Mormon, shows that it is a completely fictional story.

Best of luck

EDIT: fixed some of my talk to type "typos".

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like goodwithoutgod's post
03-08-2015, 04:51 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Mormons are a very special level of stupid. Proof, if any were needed, that some people will believe anything.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Minimalist's post
03-08-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(03-08-2015 04:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Mormons are a very special level of stupid. Proof, if any were needed, that some people will believe anything.

I agree, about one peg above scientologists, but that isn't saying much Laugh out load

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2015, 08:58 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(03-08-2015 04:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Mormons are a very special level of stupid. Proof, if any were needed, that some people will believe anything.
I resent that, I prefer the term very very special, thank you
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Cosmic Discourse's post
03-08-2015, 09:53 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Paul had visions and invented Christianity.

Muhammed have visions and invented Islam.

Joe had visions and invented Mormonism.

You need to be very confident, keep a straight face, and have a bit of luck.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Mark Fulton's post
03-08-2015, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 10:18 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(03-08-2015 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul had visions and invented Christianity.

Muhammed have visions and invented Islam.

Joe had visions and invented Mormonism.

You need to be very confident, keep a straight face, and have a bit of luck.

It helps if the angel Moron Moroni, leaves some gold plates in your back yard, and a traveling Egyptian/show exhibit is willing to sell you some of their stuff, so you can claim you translated it. Weeping they were fascinated with mummies and all things Egyptian, and he traded on that fascination with the 'strange' and exotic.

But, there actually is a mainline theological/historical argument against this moronic BS also. Almost all the varieties of Christianities developed in communities. Community authentication was a hallmark of almost all of them. In this case, the cult was invented by one crazy man, who lacked even a basic education in any relevant field. There was no opportunity for a community to develop from another foundationally similar system, (which is how "heresy" was identified, in general, in the process). So in that sense it isn't even an "authentic" Christianity, as the developmental authentication process was missing, (and obviously why Mormonism is so bizarre). It's not really a "Christian" sect, by historical standards.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
03-08-2015, 11:06 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
2 GOODWITHOUTGOD,
I will respond to one argument at the time.
Are we done with First Vision argument?
I responded:

Journal of Discourses or Times and Seasons.
1)Who says that those sources can not have errors? wrong personal opinions?
Please answer.
2)How many different accounts of the First Vision are written by the hand of Joseph Smith?
Please answer.
When you tell me how many and which one you are talking about I will answer.
We have lots of time to discuss all your arguments. let's take it easy. Let's make a deep breath OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and enjoy the dialogue. Smile

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2015, 11:47 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
goodwithoutgod: "Joseph Smith "translated" golden plates given to him by God into english, but he did not translate the "reformed egyptian" into contemporary english - instead he translated them into King James style english. Coincidentally, Joe Smith grew up reading the King James Bible."

I am confused.
1) What does it prove/show?
2) Why couldn't he choose the style he wanted, for example beautiful style of King James Bible?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-08-2015, 12:25 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(03-08-2015 08:58 PM)Cosmic Discourse Wrote:  
(03-08-2015 04:51 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Mormons are a very special level of stupid. Proof, if any were needed, that some people will believe anything.
I resent that, I prefer the term very very special, thank you

I'm sorry man but as GWG suggested you have to leave room for all the other whack jobs.

It's like in figure skating where they can't give the first skater a 10 because then they have to leave room for the others.

Of course, skaters are athletes and religious shitballs are, well....shitballs.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Minimalist's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: