Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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07-08-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Tap tap tap tappity tap taptaptaptap tap tappity tap sliiide tap tap tappity swirl tap tap tap tappity tappity tap tap tap

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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07-08-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
It's in the first few paragraphs of the article you posted, Alla!

Quote from the article:

Prevailing theories suggest that Native Americans are descended from a group of East Asians who crossed the Bering Sea via a land bridge perhaps 16,500 years ago, though some sites may evidence an earlier arrival. (See "Siberian, Native American Languages Linked—A First [2008].")

"This study changes this idea because it shows that a significant minority of Native American ancestry actually derives not from East Asia but from a people related to present-day western Eurasians," Willerslev said.

"It's approximately one-third of the genome, and that is a lot," he added. "So in that regard I think it's changing quite a bit of the history."

While the land bridge still formed the gateway to America, the study now portrays Native Americans as a group derived from the meeting of two different populations, one ancestral to East Asians and the other related to western Eurasians, explained Willerslev, whose research was published in the November 20 edition of the journal Nature.


(endquote - bold emphasis my own)

Notice it says "while the land bridge still formed the gateway". That bridge disappeared 11,000 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia

During the last glacial period, enough of the earth's water became frozen in the great ice sheets covering North America and Europe to cause a drop in sea levels. For thousands of years the sea floors of many interglacial shallow seas were exposed, including those of the Bering Strait, the Chukchi Sea to the north, and the Bering Sea to the south. Other land bridges around the world have emerged and disappeared in the same way. Around 14,000 years ago, mainland Australia was linked to both New Guinea and Tasmania, the British Isles became an extension of continental Europe via the dry beds of the English Channel and North Sea, and the dry basin of the South China Sea linked Sumatra, Java and Borneo to the Asian mainland.

The rise and fall of global sea levels in several periods of the Pleistocene era submerged and exposed the bridging land mass between Asia and North America. The Beringian land bridge is believed to have been exposed both during the glaciation that occurred before 35,000 Before Present (BP) and during the more recent period 22,000–17,000 years BP. The strait reopened about 15,500 BP and by about 11,000 years BP the coastlines were close to their present configurations. Isostatic rebound has continued to raise some sections of coast.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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07-08-2015, 08:54 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
RS76,
I am not afraid to ask stupid questions.
Please tell me one more time(like if you would talk to a child) why do the scientists believe that this happened 16, 500 years ago? Is it because they think that someone has to cross by the land to get to America? not by the sea or ocean? Or do they have another evidence?

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07-08-2015, 09:11 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 08:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  And that in no way supports the bullshit story of the Mormons. Did you even read it?

Did I say that it supports BoM? Did I even try to prove something about truthfulness of the BoM?
do you undeRRRstand my English?

What was your point? It is actually even stronger evidence against the silly story in the BoM.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-08-2015, 09:15 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  RS76,
I am not afraid to ask stupid questions.
Please tell me one more time(like if you would talk to a child) why do the scientists believe that this happened 16, 500 years ago? Is it because they think that someone has to cross by the land to get to America? not by the sea or ocean? Or do they have another evidence?

Do you even Google? Start here.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-08-2015, 09:18 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Alla - The reasons they know the sea levels changed has NOTHING to do with whether or not people crossed anywhere. It's simply that the changes afforded the opportunity. I highly recommend that you utilize Google and/or Wikipedia to do your own research, so you know you're not being misled by one of us dastardly heathens! Tongue

The (very) short version is that we have enough knowledge of the earth's cooling/heating cycles, due to orbital changes and axial tilt, as well as data from ice cores and geological formations, to put together exactly what temperatures and conditions were, and determine how much ice would have frozen, which can also be tested in geological samples.

But since you're curious, and I respect that, I'll dig it up for you.

Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia

And here is a children's science page, describing what (and how) we know:
http://www.eduplace.com/kids/hmsc/3/f/cr...f142.shtml

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2015, 02:38 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 08:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Question for Alla: was the Jesus that appeared to the Natives the white one that I have seen depicted? I have only a remedial knowledge of Mormonism but in all of the paintings that I have seen depicting Jesus appearing to the Native Americans, he was caucasian.
This is very good question for artists.
(07-08-2015 06:40 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Don't you think that the natives would have recorded this in song or something that a white guy appeared out of nowhere?
I don't remember now where I read it(but I will try to find) that some Native American tribes have a legend that long time ago their fathers were visited by white bearded God who came dawn from the sky(heaven).
Jesus?

Richard Branson?
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08-08-2015, 07:59 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 08:29 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
wow...

Well folks lets do a recap:

1) Joseph Smith's First Vision had ten different versions, three in his own handwriting.

2) DNA analysis of Native Americans disproves the Mormon Lamanite ancestor story.

3) Joseph Smith was a scam artist and criminal, arrested from the age of 18 all the way to his death by mob. His criminal activities crossed 4 states, and he had a rap sheet longer then some of our most famous criminals. Found guilty of bank fraud, and arrested for it again at least two different times, but he fled the state to avoid prosecution. A thinking person, even a faithful one, would surmise this would be an odd choice by god for a prophet....a messenger of god.....a scam artist and criminal.

4) Joseph Smith bought some ancient Egyptian papyrus from a traveling antique peddler, then claimed to be able to translate it, and formed the Book of Abraham off of his translation...by the way folks, we didn't know how to read ancient Egyptian yet. Although the Rosetta Stone had been discovered in 1799, the ability to read Egyptian was not well developed until the 1850s. Egyptologist have since determined this papyrus had zero to do with Abraham, and was a common burial writ. Thus the whole BOA was a fabrication of his inner twisted mind.

Direct links to each of these points:
1) http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid824832

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825192

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825229

2) http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid824905

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825859

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid826558

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid826682

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid826690

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid826695

and as a final effort to educate her on human ancestry: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid827319

3) http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825250

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid826706

4) http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825317

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825351

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid825856

Soooo what do you think folks? Fiction or fact? Consider

Outside of word games and let's-play-semantics attempts by Alla, she has failed to refute a single solid point, at least from my perspective, but I am biased...opinions? Has the deluge of information proven my case? I thinks so Smartass

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-08-2015, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 03:36 PM by Alla.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. We know a great deal about the DNA lineages of living Israelites and living Israelites are descended from dead Israelites who lived 2600 years ago.
(08-08-2015 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  DNA analysis of Native Americans disproves the Mormon Lamanite ancestor story.

OK,
1)I have BoM
2)I can read it in three different languages.
3)I can make my own conclusions.

Book of Mormon states that Lehi was a descendant of Manasseh. This makes him Israelite. In other words Lehi and his seed is one of the branches of the house of Israel(Jacob).

What is the symbol of the house of Israel?
What does it mean to be one of the branches(or descendant) of the house of Israel(Jacob)?

Olive tree is the symbol of the house of Israel(house of Jacob)
It has roots - Jacob(Israel)
It also has natural branches and grafted branches from wild olive tree.
Who are the natural branches of the olive tree? Natural branches are all those who literal descendants of the Jacob(roots). They are Hebrew Israelites.
Who are the grafted branches of the olive tree? Grafted branches are all those who were adopted or SPIRITUAL descendants of Jacob(roots). They are non-Hebrew Israelites. They are GENTILES by blood.

Lehi is descendant of Manasseh.
Manasseh is the branch from which Lehi's branch is coming
Lehi and his posterity are branches.

question.

Is Lehi and his posterity natural branch of the olive tree(literal descendant or Hebrew Israelites)) or is Lehi and his posterity GRAFTED branch of the olive tree(adopted/spiritual descendants or non-Hebrew Israelites or GENTILE)?

What does the Book of Mormon tell me?
Nothing.
I do NOT know if Lehi natural branch(literal descendant of Manasseh and Jacob)
or if Lehi is grafted branch from wild olive tree(Gentiles)

Let's read what Jacob said (BoM)Jacob ch.5
O house of Israel , like unto a tame olive-tree
Lord said: I will pluck the branches from a WILD olive tree(represents Gentiles)... I will graft them in the stead of good olive tree(root/Jacob)
Later Lord looked at those grafted branches and saw that they brought force good fruits.

And the fruits were LIKE UNTO THE NATURAL fruit.

In other words there is NO DIFFERENCE FOR THE LORD between Hebrew Israelite and Non-Hebrew Israelite.

Non-Hebrew Israelite as good descendant of Jacob as literal(Hebrew) descendant of Jacob.
Book of Mormon is smarter than any LDS .
Book of Mormon did not say that Lehi was Hebrew or that Lamanites were Hebrew.
Book of Mormon claims that Lehi is one of the branches.
But natural(Hebrew) or grafted(non-Hebrew)?
THIS IS THE QUESTION!!

back to you.

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08-08-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(07-08-2015 09:18 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Alla - The reasons they know the sea levels changed has NOTHING to do with whether or not people crossed anywhere. It's simply that the changes afforded the opportunity. I highly recommend that you utilize Google and/or Wikipedia to do your own research, so you know you're not being misled by one of us dastardly heathens! Tongue

The (very) short version is that we have enough knowledge of the earth's cooling/heating cycles, due to orbital changes and axial tilt, as well as data from ice cores and geological formations, to put together exactly what temperatures and conditions were, and determine how much ice would have frozen, which can also be tested in geological samples.

But since you're curious, and I respect that, I'll dig it up for you.

Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia

And here is a children's science page, describing what (and how) we know:
http://www.eduplace.com/kids/hmsc/3/f/cr...f142.shtml
thanks, but my question was not about this.
probably my imperfect English

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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