Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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08-08-2015, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 04:13 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. We know a great deal about the DNA lineages of living Israelites and living Israelites are descended from dead Israelites who lived 2600 years ago.
(08-08-2015 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  DNA analysis of Native Americans disproves the Mormon Lamanite ancestor story.

OK,
1)I have BoM
2)I can read it in three different languages.
3)I can make my own conclusions.

Book of Mormon states that Lehi was a descendant of Manasseh. This makes him Israelite. In other words Lehi and his seed is one of the branches of the house of Israel(Jacob).

What is the symbol of the house of Israel?
What does it mean to be one of the branches(or descendant) of the house of Israel(Jacob)?

Olive tree is the symbol of the house of Israel(house of Jacob)
It has roots - Jacob(Israel)
It also has natural branches and grafted branches from wild olive tree.
Who are the natural branches of the olive tree? Natural branches are all those who literal descendants of the Jacob(roots). They are Hebrew Israelites.
Who are the grafted branches of the olive tree? Grafted branches are all those who were adopted or SPIRITUAL descendants of Jacob(roots). They are non-Hebrew Israelites. They are GENTILES by blood.

Lehi is descendant of Manasseh.
Manasseh is the branch from which Lehi's branch is coming
Lehi and his posterity are branches.

question.

Is Lehi and his posterity natural branch of the olive tree(literal descendant or Hebrew Israelites)) or is Lehi and his posterity GRAFTED branch of the olive tree(adopted/spiritual descendants or non-Hebrew Israelites or GENTILE)?

What does the Book of Mormon tell me?
Nothing.
I do NOT know if Lehi natural branch(literal descendant of Manasseh and Jacob)
or if Lehi is grafted branch from wild olive tree(Gentiles)

Let's read what Jacob said (BoM)Jacob ch.5
O house of Israel , like unto a tame olive-tree
Lord said: I will pluck the branches from a WILD olive tree(represents Gentiles)... I will graft them in the stead of good olive tree(root/Jacob)
Later Lord looked at those grafted branches and saw that they brought force good fruits.

And the fruits were LIKE UNTO THE NATURAL fruit.

In other words there is NO DIFFERENCE FOR THE LORD between Hebrew Israelite and Non-Hebrew Israelite.

Non-Hebrew Israelite as good descendant of Jacob as literal(Hebrew) descendant of Jacob.
Book of Mormon is smarter than any LDS .
Book of Mormon did not say that Lehi was Hebrew or that Lamanites were Hebrew.
Book of Mormon claims that Lehi is one of the branches.
But natural(Hebrew) or grafted(non-Hebrew)?
THIS IS THE QUESTION!!

back to you.

And there you go folks.....lol....beyond words, it truly is. You see the level of tap dancing it requires to maintain faith in a dis-proven, fabricated from lies religion like Mormonism? So here Alla is playing more semantic games trying to posit a difference between "Hebrew Israelite and Non-Hebrew Israelite"...lol Sweety you could be able to read the BOM in 43 languages and it won't change the reality......it's FICTION.

Since it is apparent you didn't read it when I posted it before, lets try it again, maybe if....i...saaaaay...it...reeeeeally...slooooow.

2 Nephi 30:4

4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

Speaking in the Salt Lake Tabernacle in 1881 Wilford Woodruff, who later became Mormonism's fourth president, stated, "The Lamanites, now a down-trodden people, are a remnant of the house of Israel. The curse of God has followed them as it has done the Jews, though the Jews have not been darkened in their skin as have the Lamanites" (Journal of Discourses 22:173).

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in his book Doctrines of Salvation that this connection is also noted in Doctrine and Covenants 3:264: "Not only in the Book of Mormon are the descendants of Lehi called Jews, but also in the Doctrine and Covenants. In section 19, this is found: 'Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.'"

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, under the subtitle "Native Americans," states that "the Book of Mormon tells that a small band of Israelites under Lehi migrated from Jerusalem to the Western Hemisphere about 600 B.C. Upon Lehi's death his family divided into two opposing factions, one under Lehi's oldest son, Laman (see Lamanites), and the other under a younger son, Nephi" (3:981).

You are working awful hard to convince yourself through self delusion, but hopefully somewhere in that tiny little brain of yours, your comprehension skills can see the context clues, shit, can see the TEXTUAL words that refute the very thing you are trying so hard to make excuses for.

now, lets recap yet again:

1) Joseph Smith's First Vision had ten different versions, three in his own handwriting.

2) DNA analysis of Native Americans disproves the Mormon Lamanite ancestor story.

3) Joseph Smith was a scam artist and criminal, arrested from the age of 18 all the way to his death by mob. His criminal activities crossed 4 states, and he had a rap sheet longer then some of our most famous criminals. Found guilty of bank fraud, and arrested for it again at least two different times, but he fled the state to avoid prosecution. A thinking person, even a faithful one, would surmise this would be an odd choice by god for a prophet....a messenger of god.....a scam artist and criminal.

4) Joseph Smith bought some ancient Egyptian papyrus from a traveling antique peddler, then claimed to be able to translate it, and formed the Book of Abraham off of his translation...by the way folks, we didn't know how to read ancient Egyptian yet. Although the Rosetta Stone had been discovered in 1799, the ability to read Egyptian was not well developed until the 1850s. Egyptologist have since determined this papyrus had zero to do with Abraham, and was a common burial writ. Thus the whole BOA was a fabrication of his inner twisted mind.

Back to you.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-08-2015, 03:57 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
What is house of Judah?
House of Judah is one of the branches of the olive tree.
Branch Judah has its own branches. They are called Jews.
Some of them are natural branches or literal descendants of Judah or Hebrew.
Some of them are grafted branches or spiritual descendants of Judah or non-Hebrew.
So, does Nephi tell us whether they are natural branches( literal Hebrew descendants of house of Judah) or they are grafted(non-Hebrew) descendants of house of Judah?
back to you.

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08-08-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 03:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is house of Judah?
House of Judah is one of the branches of the olive tree.
Branch Judah has its own branches. They are called Jews.
Some of them are natural branches or literal descendants of Judah or Hebrew.
Some of them are grafted branches or spiritual descendants of Judah or non-Hebrew.
So, does Nephi tell us whether they are natural branches( literal Hebrew descendants of house of Judah) or they are grafted(non-Hebrew) descendants of house of Judah?
back to you.

Still getting yourself twisted around the tree of fiction Alla, lets review again. Fuck teaching you your own religion is getting old, I should be charging you at this point.

The book of Mormon is one of the most solidly debunked religious holy books known to man, outside of Scientology of course. According to the Book of Mormon, a “lost tribe of Israel” migrated to the Americas in 600 BCE. The introduction to the Book of Mormon tells a wild tale of the Lamanites, which apparently were “the principal ancestors of the American Indians.” The Lamanites supposedly lapsed into apostasy, but Joseph Smith claimed he had been shown magical golden tablets bearing their story by special angel named Moroni. Joseph Smith went on to state that he was able to translate these tablets in 1823 from an unknown language called Reformed Egyptian… Thus creating the Book of Mormon.

Mormons assert that they are the true remnant of the Christian church, the one true church. I’m sure this surprises no one, as every strain of Christian delusion claims to be the one true church. Leaders of the Mormon church initially hoped that genetic research would validate their beliefs. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. So far, no support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the DNA data. Native American researcher Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist from the University of Kansas, “I don’t think there is one iota of evidence to suggest a lost tribe of Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by an ugly fact.” Current genetic research indicates that today’s Native American people dissented from Asia, not from European or Jewish stock.

Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2:5 and the Book of Mormon states, “and it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.” As such, the Book of Mormon clearly states there was nobody there. And 600 BCE there was approximately several million Native American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it will be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. However, that scenario does not fit with what the Book of Mormon clearly states, and as per what the Mormon prophets have taught for over 175 years.

Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. We know a great deal about the DNA lineages of living Israelites and living Israelites are descended from dead Israelites who lived 2600 years ago. Israelite DNA lineages belong to the same family groups found in European populations. These are the H, I, J, K, N, T, U, V, W and X groups. Essentially all Europeans and Israelites possess one of these lineages. In fact many other Middle Eastern populations such as the Syrians, Egytpians, Lebanese and other Arabic groups have similar DNA lineages. There is a smattering (<0.4%) of European lineages in American Indian populations but scientists justifiably assume they arrived after Columbus. They are most common in tribes that had greater impact with Europeans (North American); they are not common in Mesoamerica, the only “plausible” site for the Book of Mormon; and the lineages found so far are most common in Western European populations such as Spain.

Yet another counter argument from Mormon apologists is that mitochondrial DNA only tells us about one ancestral line out of many. If we go back 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in 1024 of our ancestors. If we go back another 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in over a million of our ancestors. You have to give them credit for trying. But, this is a specious argument that has been quite popular among the apologists lately. It is a clever ruse, which on the surface looks sound, but which is based in deception. The vast majority of mitochondrial lineages found throughout the world can be grouped into less than 25 families, represented by letters such as A, H, X etc. If we look at American Indians, essentially 100% of their mitochondrial lineages fall into one of 5 families; A, B, C, D or X which were not derived from Israel. So 20 generations back, we are not talking about millions of unknowable mitochondrial lineages in an American Indian’s pedigree chart. We are talking about 5 that occupy virtually all of those millions of ancestral slots. Essentially all of those lineages, even those that end up in males and are not passed on, clearly must have belonged to the 5 lineage families. It is possible that some lineages may have not been detected yet or have been lost in time through chance, but these would have been very rare lineages.

Another misguided counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the X lineage could be evidence for Israelite ancestry. Nice try, however, Native American Indian X lineages are descended from common ancestors who lived over 20,000 years ago in Asia. American Indian X lineages are even more distantly related to Israelite or European X lineages. In fact, most Israelite X lineage are now grouped in a different family, the N family, because they are so different to Asian and American X lineages. The X lineage has been found in ancient remains that pre-date the Book of Mormon period.

A final counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the wives of the early Book of Mormon colonists (Sariah etc or even the Jaredite women) may have brought the A,B,C,D and X lineages to the Americas. The stupid it burns, it truly does. The amount of DNA variation found in all 5 American Indian female DNA lineage families is sufficient to indicate that they have been present in the Americas for at least 15,000 years, possibly longer. This predates the existence of Israel by many thousands of years. Of course it is possible (but exceedingly unlikely) that several Asian woman carrying Asian lineages travelled to Israel where they intermarried with the ancestors of the Lehites and Mulekites, and that some Native American A, B, C D or X lineages came from them. What are the odds that this absolutely remarkable scenario actually happened in reality? I guess everything is possible for the Lord, but again it leaves me feeling less than kind thoughts about a God who could allow this to happen, knowing how much it would trick people. Why don’t we see these Asian lineages among Middle Eastern populations? The truth usually lies in the simplest explanation.

THINK Alla, think, doesn't matter the language you choose to read it, the BS is see through.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-08-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  OK,
1)I have BoM
2)I can read it in three different languages.
3)I can make my own conclusions.

Book of Mormon states that Lehi was a descendant of Manasseh. This makes him Israelite. In other words Lehi and his seed is one of the branches of the house of Israel(Jacob).

What is the symbol of the house of Israel?
What does it mean to be one of the branches(or descendant) of the house of Israel(Jacob)?

Olive tree is the symbol of the house of Israel(house of Jacob)
It has roots - Jacob(Israel)
It also has natural branches and grafted branches from wild olive tree.
Who are the natural branches of the olive tree? Natural branches are all those who literal descendants of the Jacob(roots). They are Hebrew Israelites.
Who are the grafted branches of the olive tree? Grafted branches are all those who were adopted or SPIRITUAL descendants of Jacob(roots). They are non-Hebrew Israelites. They are GENTILES by blood.

Lehi is descendant of Manasseh.
Manasseh is the branch from which Lehi's branch is coming
Lehi and his posterity are branches.

question.

Is Lehi and his posterity natural branch of the olive tree(literal descendant or Hebrew Israelites)) or is Lehi and his posterity GRAFTED branch of the olive tree(adopted/spiritual descendants or non-Hebrew Israelites or GENTILE)?

What does the Book of Mormon tell me?
Nothing.
I do NOT know if Lehi natural branch(literal descendant of Manasseh and Jacob)
or if Lehi is grafted branch from wild olive tree(Gentiles)

Let's read what Jacob said (BoM)Jacob ch.5
O house of Israel , like unto a tame olive-tree
Lord said: I will pluck the branches from a WILD olive tree(represents Gentiles)... I will graft them in the stead of good olive tree(root/Jacob)
Later Lord looked at those grafted branches and saw that they brought force good fruits.

And the fruits were LIKE UNTO THE NATURAL fruit.

In other words there is NO DIFFERENCE FOR THE LORD between Hebrew Israelite and Non-Hebrew Israelite.

Non-Hebrew Israelite as good descendant of Jacob as literal(Hebrew) descendant of Jacob.
Book of Mormon is smarter than any LDS .
Book of Mormon did not say that Lehi was Hebrew or that Lamanites were Hebrew.
Book of Mormon claims that Lehi is one of the branches.
But natural(Hebrew) or grafted(non-Hebrew)?
THIS IS THE QUESTION!!

back to you.

It doesn't matter. No ancestors of Amerinds came from anyone in the ANE, Hebrew or not. Note also that the Hebrews were not genetically distinct from their neighbors.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2015, 05:42 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 03:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is house of Judah?
House of Judah is one of the branches of the olive tree.
Branch Judah has its own branches. They are called Jews.
Some of them are natural branches or literal descendants of Judah or Hebrew.
Some of them are grafted branches or spiritual descendants of Judah or non-Hebrew.
So, does Nephi tell us whether they are natural branches( literal Hebrew descendants of house of Judah) or they are grafted(non-Hebrew) descendants of house of Judah?
back to you.

Still getting yourself twisted around the tree of fiction Alla, lets review again. Fuck teaching you your own religion is getting old, I should be charging you at this point.

The book of Mormon is one of the most solidly debunked religious holy books known to man, outside of Scientology of course. According to the Book of Mormon, a “lost tribe of Israel” migrated to the Americas in 600 BCE. The introduction to the Book of Mormon tells a wild tale of the Lamanites, which apparently were “the principal ancestors of the American Indians.” The Lamanites supposedly lapsed into apostasy, but Joseph Smith claimed he had been shown magical golden tablets bearing their story by special angel named Moroni. Joseph Smith went on to state that he was able to translate these tablets in 1823 from an unknown language called Reformed Egyptian… Thus creating the Book of Mormon.

Mormons assert that they are the true remnant of the Christian church, the one true church. I’m sure this surprises no one, as every strain of Christian delusion claims to be the one true church. Leaders of the Mormon church initially hoped that genetic research would validate their beliefs. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. So far, no support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the DNA data. Native American researcher Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist from the University of Kansas, “I don’t think there is one iota of evidence to suggest a lost tribe of Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by an ugly fact.” Current genetic research indicates that today’s Native American people dissented from Asia, not from European or Jewish stock.

Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2:5 and the Book of Mormon states, “and it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.” As such, the Book of Mormon clearly states there was nobody there. And 600 BCE there was approximately several million Native American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it will be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. However, that scenario does not fit with what the Book of Mormon clearly states, and as per what the Mormon prophets have taught for over 175 years.

Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. We know a great deal about the DNA lineages of living Israelites and living Israelites are descended from dead Israelites who lived 2600 years ago. Israelite DNA lineages belong to the same family groups found in European populations. These are the H, I, J, K, N, T, U, V, W and X groups. Essentially all Europeans and Israelites possess one of these lineages. In fact many other Middle Eastern populations such as the Syrians, Egytpians, Lebanese and other Arabic groups have similar DNA lineages. There is a smattering (<0.4%) of European lineages in American Indian populations but scientists justifiably assume they arrived after Columbus. They are most common in tribes that had greater impact with Europeans (North American); they are not common in Mesoamerica, the only “plausible” site for the Book of Mormon; and the lineages found so far are most common in Western European populations such as Spain.

Yet another counter argument from Mormon apologists is that mitochondrial DNA only tells us about one ancestral line out of many. If we go back 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in 1024 of our ancestors. If we go back another 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in over a million of our ancestors. You have to give them credit for trying. But, this is a specious argument that has been quite popular among the apologists lately. It is a clever ruse, which on the surface looks sound, but which is based in deception. The vast majority of mitochondrial lineages found throughout the world can be grouped into less than 25 families, represented by letters such as A, H, X etc. If we look at American Indians, essentially 100% of their mitochondrial lineages fall into one of 5 families; A, B, C, D or X which were not derived from Israel. So 20 generations back, we are not talking about millions of unknowable mitochondrial lineages in an American Indian’s pedigree chart. We are talking about 5 that occupy virtually all of those millions of ancestral slots. Essentially all of those lineages, even those that end up in males and are not passed on, clearly must have belonged to the 5 lineage families. It is possible that some lineages may have not been detected yet or have been lost in time through chance, but these would have been very rare lineages.

Another misguided counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the X lineage could be evidence for Israelite ancestry. Nice try, however, Native American Indian X lineages are descended from common ancestors who lived over 20,000 years ago in Asia. American Indian X lineages are even more distantly related to Israelite or European X lineages. In fact, most Israelite X lineage are now grouped in a different family, the N family, because they are so different to Asian and American X lineages. The X lineage has been found in ancient remains that pre-date the Book of Mormon period.

A final counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the wives of the early Book of Mormon colonists (Sariah etc or even the Jaredite women) may have brought the A,B,C,D and X lineages to the Americas. The stupid it burns, it truly does. The amount of DNA variation found in all 5 American Indian female DNA lineage families is sufficient to indicate that they have been present in the Americas for at least 15,000 years, possibly longer. This predates the existence of Israel by many thousands of years. Of course it is possible (but exceedingly unlikely) that several Asian woman carrying Asian lineages travelled to Israel where they intermarried with the ancestors of the Lehites and Mulekites, and that some Native American A, B, C D or X lineages came from them. What are the odds that this absolutely remarkable scenario actually happened in reality? I guess everything is possible for the Lord, but again it leaves me feeling less than kind thoughts about a God who could allow this to happen, knowing how much it would trick people. Why don’t we see these Asian lineages among Middle Eastern populations? The truth usually lies in the simplest explanation.

THINK Alla, think, doesn't matter the language you choose to read it, the BS is see through.

"THINK Alla, think, doesn't matter the language you choose to read it, the BS is see through"

Yes.

This is all we ask from our religious friends.

Unfortunately, most religious people have been bought up in an environment where they are discouraged from thinking. They like to attach themselves to someone or something who has done the thinking for them. For example "I believe him, or her, or that book."

How second rate is that compared to examining evidence for yourself and coming to your own conclusions!
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08-08-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 03:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is house of Judah?
House of Judah is one of the branches of the olive tree.
Branch Judah has its own branches. They are called Jews.
Some of them are natural branches or literal descendants of Judah or Hebrew.
Some of them are grafted branches or spiritual descendants of Judah or non-Hebrew.
So, does Nephi tell us whether they are natural branches( literal Hebrew descendants of house of Judah) or they are grafted(non-Hebrew) descendants of house of Judah?
back to you.

Alla, let it go.

Look at the big picture.

Joe was an uneducated fraudster who saw how easily people were controlled by religion, and he was arrogant and charismatic enough to invent his own. He chased power and money and girls, all for his own personal gain, and fucked up a lot of people's lives in the process.

The modern church of LDS is a modern, watered down version of its founder. It was, and still is, all about power and money...using the people for profit. To an outsider like me, or GWG, or any of us atheists, this is very obvious. You are an insider...your sense of who you are and your social life revolves around the spiel...yet that spiel is controlling you, emptying your pockets, undermining your autonomy and suppressing you.

All churches and all cults do this, yet the one you are unlucky enough to be in is notorious.

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
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08-08-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  According to the Book of Mormon, a “lost tribe of Israel” migrated to the Americas in 600 BCE.
Yes, and I already explained to you that Lehi was one branch of the lost tribe of Manasseh. Was Lehi a grafted branch(non-Hebrew or Gentile) or was he a natural branch(Hebrew)?
please, name of the book, chapter, verses.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The introduction to the Book of Mormon tells a wild tale of the Lamanites, which apparently were “the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

Lamanites are either:
1)literal descendant of Lehi
or
2)all people who were not righteous and didn't love Nephi.

Was Lehi a literal descendant of Manaseh(Hebrew) or adopted descendant(non-Hebrew/Gentile by blood)?
please , book, chapter, verse.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  So far, no support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the DNA data.
If Lehi was not a natural branch of house of Israel, if he was grafted branch of house of Israel, it made him non-Hebrew Israelite.
It made all his sons non-Hebrew Israelites.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Native American researcher Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist from the University of Kansas, “I don’t think there is one iota of evidence to suggest a lost tribe of Israel made it all the way to the New World.
May be he has to look for it a little bit harder. May be somewhere were no man's foot was walking.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.
I don't care about this argument. LDS people are just humans. They may have wrong opinions.
Book of Mormon is smarter than them and smarter than her critics.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. blah-blah-blah
Again, I don't listen to everything what Mormon say.
But I listen and I know what BoM says.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Yet another counter argument from Mormon apologists
I don't care. BoM is smarter than them and their personal opinions.
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  THINK Alla, think, doesn't matter the language you choose to read it, the BS is see through.
Language is very simple. There are natural branches (Hebrew Israelites) and grafted branches(non-Hebrew Israelites).
Both of them are CHILDREN or SEED OF JACOB and CHILDREN or SEED of Abraham.

Was Lehi natural branch of house of Jacob or grafted?
What does the BoM say? tell me because I have no idea.

English is my second language.
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08-08-2015, 06:37 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 06:02 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, let it go.
Not yet.
I want to show to GWG that he doesn't know one thing:
In reality critics criticize what some LDS people were saying. LDS people are not always correct.
DNA study can discredit their personal opinions. But nobody could discredit Book of Mormon yet.
Book of Mormon is smarter then all the people on the planet Earth.
(08-08-2015 06:02 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Look at the big picture.
Joe was an uneducated fraudster who saw how easily people were controlled by religion, and he was arrogant and charismatic enough to invent his own. He chased power and money and girls, all for his own personal gain, and fucked up a lot of people's lives in the process.
I don't know this.
(08-08-2015 06:02 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
I do not take advices from the strangers.Smile

English is my second language.
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08-08-2015, 06:45 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 04:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  It doesn't matter. No ancestors of Amerinds came from anyone in the ANE, Hebrew or not.
You don't know what you don't know and I don't know what I don't know.

(08-08-2015 04:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Note also that the Hebrews were not genetically distinct from their neighbors.
Lehi's descendants could be from Asia who traveled and settled in the land of Jerusalem. They could become grafted branch of house of Manasseh which means house of Joseph which means house of Jacob which means seed of Abraham.
In Abraham ALL nations will be blessed. ALL nations will become seed unto Abraham(his descendands)

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08-08-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 05:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 04:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Still getting yourself twisted around the tree of fiction Alla, lets review again. Fuck teaching you your own religion is getting old, I should be charging you at this point.

The book of Mormon is one of the most solidly debunked religious holy books known to man, outside of Scientology of course. According to the Book of Mormon, a “lost tribe of Israel” migrated to the Americas in 600 BCE. The introduction to the Book of Mormon tells a wild tale of the Lamanites, which apparently were “the principal ancestors of the American Indians.” The Lamanites supposedly lapsed into apostasy, but Joseph Smith claimed he had been shown magical golden tablets bearing their story by special angel named Moroni. Joseph Smith went on to state that he was able to translate these tablets in 1823 from an unknown language called Reformed Egyptian… Thus creating the Book of Mormon.

Mormons assert that they are the true remnant of the Christian church, the one true church. I’m sure this surprises no one, as every strain of Christian delusion claims to be the one true church. Leaders of the Mormon church initially hoped that genetic research would validate their beliefs. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. So far, no support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the DNA data. Native American researcher Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist from the University of Kansas, “I don’t think there is one iota of evidence to suggest a lost tribe of Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by an ugly fact.” Current genetic research indicates that today’s Native American people dissented from Asia, not from European or Jewish stock.

Counter arguments from Mormon apologists try to assert that the DNA of Lehi and his followers would have been obscured over time by the more dominant genetic force of the Native Americans with whom they intermixed upon arrival and North America. This argument doesn’t pass scrutiny however. That is because this assertion contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2:5 and the Book of Mormon states, “and it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.” As such, the Book of Mormon clearly states there was nobody there. And 600 BCE there was approximately several million Native American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it will be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. However, that scenario does not fit with what the Book of Mormon clearly states, and as per what the Mormon prophets have taught for over 175 years.

Another counter argument from Mormon apologists asserts that we don’t know what Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, Ishmael’s wife, or Mulek’s genes look like. Sure, we don’t know what DNA lineage these Book of Mormon people had, but we do know they were Israelites. We know a great deal about the DNA lineages of living Israelites and living Israelites are descended from dead Israelites who lived 2600 years ago. Israelite DNA lineages belong to the same family groups found in European populations. These are the H, I, J, K, N, T, U, V, W and X groups. Essentially all Europeans and Israelites possess one of these lineages. In fact many other Middle Eastern populations such as the Syrians, Egytpians, Lebanese and other Arabic groups have similar DNA lineages. There is a smattering (<0.4%) of European lineages in American Indian populations but scientists justifiably assume they arrived after Columbus. They are most common in tribes that had greater impact with Europeans (North American); they are not common in Mesoamerica, the only “plausible” site for the Book of Mormon; and the lineages found so far are most common in Western European populations such as Spain.

Yet another counter argument from Mormon apologists is that mitochondrial DNA only tells us about one ancestral line out of many. If we go back 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in 1024 of our ancestors. If we go back another 10 generations it only tells us about 1 in over a million of our ancestors. You have to give them credit for trying. But, this is a specious argument that has been quite popular among the apologists lately. It is a clever ruse, which on the surface looks sound, but which is based in deception. The vast majority of mitochondrial lineages found throughout the world can be grouped into less than 25 families, represented by letters such as A, H, X etc. If we look at American Indians, essentially 100% of their mitochondrial lineages fall into one of 5 families; A, B, C, D or X which were not derived from Israel. So 20 generations back, we are not talking about millions of unknowable mitochondrial lineages in an American Indian’s pedigree chart. We are talking about 5 that occupy virtually all of those millions of ancestral slots. Essentially all of those lineages, even those that end up in males and are not passed on, clearly must have belonged to the 5 lineage families. It is possible that some lineages may have not been detected yet or have been lost in time through chance, but these would have been very rare lineages.

Another misguided counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the X lineage could be evidence for Israelite ancestry. Nice try, however, Native American Indian X lineages are descended from common ancestors who lived over 20,000 years ago in Asia. American Indian X lineages are even more distantly related to Israelite or European X lineages. In fact, most Israelite X lineage are now grouped in a different family, the N family, because they are so different to Asian and American X lineages. The X lineage has been found in ancient remains that pre-date the Book of Mormon period.

A final counter argument from Mormon apologists is that the wives of the early Book of Mormon colonists (Sariah etc or even the Jaredite women) may have brought the A,B,C,D and X lineages to the Americas. The stupid it burns, it truly does. The amount of DNA variation found in all 5 American Indian female DNA lineage families is sufficient to indicate that they have been present in the Americas for at least 15,000 years, possibly longer. This predates the existence of Israel by many thousands of years. Of course it is possible (but exceedingly unlikely) that several Asian woman carrying Asian lineages travelled to Israel where they intermarried with the ancestors of the Lehites and Mulekites, and that some Native American A, B, C D or X lineages came from them. What are the odds that this absolutely remarkable scenario actually happened in reality? I guess everything is possible for the Lord, but again it leaves me feeling less than kind thoughts about a God who could allow this to happen, knowing how much it would trick people. Why don’t we see these Asian lineages among Middle Eastern populations? The truth usually lies in the simplest explanation.

THINK Alla, think, doesn't matter the language you choose to read it, the BS is see through.

"THINK Alla, think, doesn't matter the language you choose to read it, the BS is see through"

Yes.

This is all we ask from our religious friends.

Unfortunately, most religious people have been bought up in an environment where they are discouraged from thinking. They like to attach themselves to someone or something who has done the thinking for them. For example "I believe him, or her, or that book."

How second rate is that compared to examining evidence for yourself and coming to your own conclusions!
...
When you show me that Lehi was Hebrew Israelite(natural branch) I will tell you that BoM was wrong.


....

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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