Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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09-08-2015, 06:44 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 11:45 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I just read the whole spam, and the guy makes a pretty good set of points regarding the principles of genetic drift covering the presence of a small group interbreeding with a much, much larger population, though I think it's still a "gaps" argument, especially given that the BoM details a massive empire founded by the "Hebrew settlers". It also completely ignores what we now know about haplotype X and the central-Asian/Russian (which split toward Europe and toward Beringia, >13K years ago) migration we were discussing previously, via the National Genographic Project. It appears the professor you're quoting is either unaware of the new data, or is ignoring it, perhaps because he published before the new data were found.

Unfortunately, based on the prevalence of this new DNA source we now know about from the A, B2, X, and Q haplogroups that went into Beringia (making up a large minority of the population in the pre-Columbian New World), his arguments about "maybe they came from Egypt" are bunkum, at this point. They cannot have bearing on the issue of the BoM settlers because the X haplotype migrated out of the Africa/Mideast region into central Asia/Russia well over 13,000 years ago.

To put it another way, despite all that spam, and despite the fact that it's plausible that a small group of settlers 2600 years ago would blend invisibly into the population through genetic drift, it's not plausible that the X haplotype found in the Native American populations comes from those Hebrew settlers 2600 years ago, nor can it count as evidence of such. Can't have it both ways.

This type of excuse-making occurs so often with apologists, they throw out wild, unproven speculation about what COULD have happened, while providing zero evidence that it DID happen. It's a chasm that they will never be able to go across.

Why would anyone consider this anything but a fairytale? Why would anyone be anything but embarrassed by this?





At 2:25 they explain the origins of black people, Joseph Smith is a clown, and his fairytale book is uber-clownish.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-08-2015, 07:23 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
The idea that a population of Hebrew crossed the entire Asian continent following the same trail then the future silk road since it's the easiest way to go from west to east ; unopposed, unnoticed and without merging or dealing with other civilisations on the way; crossed an unknown ocean on crappy boats since the Hebrew were far from being good sailors; managed to established themselves in America; crossed the continent and established themselves in the southern part of what is now the United States; disappeared without leaving any trace beside a golden tablet that no one has ever seen; this is an absolutely ridiculous story. You can try to find ancestral DNA in the Native American that would be of Semitic lineage all you want. You may even find it. After all, the entire world population can trace their lineage back to eastern Africa. We all share DNA at some point. This isn't the evidence of a Hebrew tribe colonising America. You would need traces of a population migration be it the records of the civilisation that would have encountered them, in temporary settlements that would indicate their passage, by burials specific to their culture, etc.

If the Mormon want to prove their story is real, there is a very simple way. Let them produce the fabled golden tablets of Joseph Smith and let us analyse them with our best tools and our best scholars. If it was a genuine artefact from ancient Hebrew society, it would establish the Mormons has the very first true religion. The problem is that those tablets aren't real. Joseph Smith was a con-man who wanted power and money over credulous people.
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09-08-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(09-08-2015 07:23 AM)epronovost Wrote:  The idea that a population of Hebrew crossed the entire Asian continent following the same trail then the future silk road since it's the easiest way to go from west to east ; unopposed, unnoticed and without merging or dealing with other civilisations on the way; crossed an unknown ocean on crappy boats since the Hebrew were far from being good sailors; managed to established themselves in America; crossed the continent and established themselves in the southern part of what is now the United States; disappeared without leaving any trace beside a golden tablet that no one has ever seen; this is an absolutely ridiculous story. You can try to find ancestral DNA in the Native American that would be of Semitic lineage all you want. You may even find it. After all, the entire world population can trace their lineage back to eastern Africa. We all share DNA at some point. This isn't the evidence of a Hebrew tribe colonising America. You would need traces of a population migration be it the records of the civilisation that would have encountered them, in temporary settlements that would indicate their passage, by burials specific to their culture, etc.

If the Mormon want to prove their story is real, there is a very simple way. Let them produce the fabled golden tablets of Joseph Smith and let us analyse them with our best tools and our best scholars. If it was a genuine artefact from ancient Hebrew society, it would establish the Mormons has the very first true religion. The problem is that those tablets aren't real. Joseph Smith was a con-man who wanted power and money over credulous people.

Forgot one thing. He also wanted to screw around with his wife's female friends .. so polygamy was an essential part of his new BS. (She was not at all happy about it).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-08-2015, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2015 09:09 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(08-08-2015 11:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  O, what is your major?

and what is your major dear child? You really want to play who has the bigger dick? truly?

I have 3 classes remaining for my Master's degree in Criminal Science with spec in Critical Incident Management, which will be my third degree. I have a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice with spec in Homeland Security, and an Associates in Religious Studies with spec in Christianity. All from Saint Leo University, and my overall GPA is 3.908. Now outside of the Associates in Religious Studies (I took almost every religious class available to me because the subject interests me) what in the world would a major in criminal justice have to do with this topic? Everything.....it develops an analytical mind, evidence analysis, crime scene recreation, understanding of human psych etc...all of which makes me a skilled and analytical researcher in the subject of religion.

However, in the end...WHO gives a fuck? Degrees are just scraps of paper that are an indicator of time and money spent to acquire them...not an indication of intelligence, or comprehension skills, or even knowledge. College is ridiculously easy, I put about 5-10% effort in all of my classes, and still get straight A's. Point? Even if you have a degree in ancient egyptological studies it would not be an indicator of your ability to comprehend the material, and explain it to others. A degree is not correlated to intelligence or even knowledge, it is an indicator of time. One would like to think if one pursued education in a field one gains knowledge, but sadly that isn't always the fact. Most of my fellow students are religious, and it is apparent that faith blocks their ability to learn, because anything presented that goes against their limited view of the world through their god glasses, they dismiss.

I would submit to you there are many on this board who have zero higher education that can out debate you on your own religion, or probably on life in general because of their life experience and intelligence. Then there are also many on here with much higher education then me, published authors, scientists, biblical scholars and logic experts who make me look like a small child in regards to theology, why arent they debating you? Because they don't bother to waste the time and effort on one so obviously clueless about this subject. Unlike you, I can actually explain what I post, and usually if it is a copy/paste I provide the link. if I merged my online and offline research with my own interpretation and words, then I may not provide a link as it has changed too much. Your ability to type "disprove mormon critics arguments" or "mormonism is true" or "disprove DNA argument against mormonism"...into google and then copy the search results and paste it on the forum with the addition of "back to you" with a smug smile like you actually applied any thought or knowledge is a reflection of academic dishonesty....like your religion's founder..


I removed my name from my online transcript below, but not the number of credits and GPA, just so you don't think I am some online wannabe making up shit...I am transparent Alla, and it truly bothers me that you have allowed yourself to be so brainwashed and indoctrinated in your delusion.....

[Image: 72b0c8.png]

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-08-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-08-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(09-08-2015 08:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 11:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  O, what is your major?

and what is your major dear child? You really want to play who has the bigger dick? truly?

I have 3 classes remaining for my Master's degree in Criminal Science with spec in Critical Incident management, which will be my third degree. I have a bachelor's in Criminal Justice with spec in Homeland Security, and an Associates in Religious studies with spec in Christianity. All from Saint Leo University, and my overall GPA is 3.908. Now outside of the associates in religious studies (I took almost every religious class available to me because the subject interests me) what in the world would a major in criminal justice have to do with this topic? Everything.....it develops an analytical mind, evidence analysis, crime scene recreation, understanding of human pysch etc...all of which makes me a skilled researcher in the subject of religion.

However, in the end...WHO gives a fuck? Degrees are just scraps of paper that are an indicator of time and money spent to acquire them...not an indication of intelligence, or comprehension skills, or even knowledge. College is ridiculously easy, I put about 5-10% effort in all of my classes, and still get straight A's. Point? Even if you have a degree in ancient egyptological studies it would not be an indicator of your ability to comprehend the material, and explain it to others. A degree is not correlated to intelligence or even knowledge, it is an indicator of time. One would like to think if one pursued education in a field one gains knowledge, but sadly that isn't always the fact. Most of my fellow students are religious, and it is apparent that faith blocks their ability to learn, because anything presented that goes against their limited view of the world through their god glasses, they dismiss.

I would submit to you there are many on this board who have zero higher education that can out debate you on your own religion, or probably on life in general because of their life experience and intelligence. Then there are also many on here with much higher education then me, published authors, scientists, biblical scholars and logic experts who make me look like a small child in regards to theology, why arent they debating you? Because they don't bother to waste the time and effort on one so obviously clueless about this subject. Unlike you, I can actually explain what I post, and usually if it is a copy/paste I provide the link. if I merged my online and offline research with my own interpretation and words, then I may not provide a link as it has changed too much. Your ability to type "disprove mormon critics arguments" or "mormonism is true" or "disprove DNA argument against mormonism"...into google and then copy the search results and paste it on the forum with the addition of "back to you" with a smug smile like you actually applied any thought or knowledge is a reflection of academic dishonesty....like your religion's founder..


I removed my name from my online transcript below, but not the number of credits and GPA, just so you don't think I am some online wannabe making up shit...I am transparent Alla, and it truly bothers me that you have allowed yourself to be so brainwashed and indoctrinated in your delusion.....

[Image: 72b0c8.png]

3.997

Tongue

Angel

I got an A- once. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-08-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(09-08-2015 08:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 08:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  and what is your major dear child? You really want to play who has the bigger dick? truly?

I have 3 classes remaining for my Master's degree in Criminal Science with spec in Critical Incident management, which will be my third degree. I have a bachelor's in Criminal Justice with spec in Homeland Security, and an Associates in Religious studies with spec in Christianity. All from Saint Leo University, and my overall GPA is 3.908. Now outside of the associates in religious studies (I took almost every religious class available to me because the subject interests me) what in the world would a major in criminal justice have to do with this topic? Everything.....it develops an analytical mind, evidence analysis, crime scene recreation, understanding of human pysch etc...all of which makes me a skilled researcher in the subject of religion.

However, in the end...WHO gives a fuck? Degrees are just scraps of paper that are an indicator of time and money spent to acquire them...not an indication of intelligence, or comprehension skills, or even knowledge. College is ridiculously easy, I put about 5-10% effort in all of my classes, and still get straight A's. Point? Even if you have a degree in ancient egyptological studies it would not be an indicator of your ability to comprehend the material, and explain it to others. A degree is not correlated to intelligence or even knowledge, it is an indicator of time. One would like to think if one pursued education in a field one gains knowledge, but sadly that isn't always the fact. Most of my fellow students are religious, and it is apparent that faith blocks their ability to learn, because anything presented that goes against their limited view of the world through their god glasses, they dismiss.

I would submit to you there are many on this board who have zero higher education that can out debate you on your own religion, or probably on life in general because of their life experience and intelligence. Then there are also many on here with much higher education then me, published authors, scientists, biblical scholars and logic experts who make me look like a small child in regards to theology, why arent they debating you? Because they don't bother to waste the time and effort on one so obviously clueless about this subject. Unlike you, I can actually explain what I post, and usually if it is a copy/paste I provide the link. if I merged my online and offline research with my own interpretation and words, then I may not provide a link as it has changed too much. Your ability to type "disprove mormon critics arguments" or "mormonism is true" or "disprove DNA argument against mormonism"...into google and then copy the search results and paste it on the forum with the addition of "back to you" with a smug smile like you actually applied any thought or knowledge is a reflection of academic dishonesty....like your religion's founder..


I removed my name from my online transcript below, but not the number of credits and GPA, just so you don't think I am some online wannabe making up shit...I am transparent Alla, and it truly bothers me that you have allowed yourself to be so brainwashed and indoctrinated in your delusion.....

[Image: 72b0c8.png]

3.997

Tongue

Angel

I got an A- once. Weeping

Bowing Big Grin I got a couple of B's in Criminal Law during the police academy Unsure...As I said, there are many here who make me look like a small child academically Blush I am doing ok for an ex high school drop out who decided to go back to school in his 40s Weeping

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-08-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(09-08-2015 07:23 AM)epronovost Wrote:  The idea that a population of Hebrew crossed the entire Asian continent following the same trail then the future silk road since it's the easiest way to go from west to east ; unopposed, unnoticed and without merging or dealing with other civilisations on the way; crossed an unknown ocean on crappy boats since the Hebrew were far from being good sailors; managed to established themselves in America; crossed the continent and established themselves in the southern part of what is now the United States; disappeared without leaving any trace beside a golden tablet that no one has ever seen; this is an absolutely ridiculous story. You can try to find ancestral DNA in the Native American that would be of Semitic lineage all you want. You may even find it. After all, the entire world population can trace their lineage back to eastern Africa. We all share DNA at some point. This isn't the evidence of a Hebrew tribe colonising America. You would need traces of a population migration be it the records of the civilisation that would have encountered them, in temporary settlements that would indicate their passage, by burials specific to their culture, etc.

If the Mormon want to prove their story is real, there is a very simple way. Let them produce the fabled golden tablets of Joseph Smith and let us analyse them with our best tools and our best scholars. If it was a genuine artefact from ancient Hebrew society, it would establish the Mormons has the very first true religion. The problem is that those tablets aren't real. Joseph Smith was a con-man who wanted power and money over credulous people.

Is this story any crazier than that crap that seeps out of Ken Ham to explain how the kangaroos, Koalas and whatnot got to their destination.....without.......a........trace......... Oh, I guess that is pretty stupid as well. NVM.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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09-08-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(09-08-2015 09:15 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 07:23 AM)epronovost Wrote:  The idea that a population of Hebrew crossed the entire Asian continent following the same trail then the future silk road since it's the easiest way to go from west to east ; unopposed, unnoticed and without merging or dealing with other civilisations on the way; crossed an unknown ocean on crappy boats since the Hebrew were far from being good sailors; managed to established themselves in America; crossed the continent and established themselves in the southern part of what is now the United States; disappeared without leaving any trace beside a golden tablet that no one has ever seen; this is an absolutely ridiculous story. You can try to find ancestral DNA in the Native American that would be of Semitic lineage all you want. You may even find it. After all, the entire world population can trace their lineage back to eastern Africa. We all share DNA at some point. This isn't the evidence of a Hebrew tribe colonising America. You would need traces of a population migration be it the records of the civilisation that would have encountered them, in temporary settlements that would indicate their passage, by burials specific to their culture, etc.

If the Mormon want to prove their story is real, there is a very simple way. Let them produce the fabled golden tablets of Joseph Smith and let us analyse them with our best tools and our best scholars. If it was a genuine artefact from ancient Hebrew society, it would establish the Mormons has the very first true religion. The problem is that those tablets aren't real. Joseph Smith was a con-man who wanted power and money over credulous people.

Is this story any crazier than that crap that seeps out of Ken Ham to explain how the kangaroos, Koalas and whatnot got to their destination.....without.......a........trace......... Oh, I guess that is pretty stupis as well. NVM.

It does boggle the brain....it is like a contest...who can make up the most ridiculous creation story and see if people will buy it....winner! Scientology comes in first, and Mormonism second.

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"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-08-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(09-08-2015 08:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 11:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  O, what is your major?

and what is your major dear child? You really want to play who has the bigger dick? truly?

I have 3 classes remaining for my Master's degree in Criminal Science with spec in Critical Incident Management, which will be my third degree. I have a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice with spec in Homeland Security, and an Associates in Religious Studies with spec in Christianity. All from Saint Leo University, and my overall GPA is 3.908. Now outside of the Associates in Religious Studies (I took almost every religious class available to me because the subject interests me) what in the world would a major in criminal justice have to do with this topic? Everything.....it develops an analytical mind, evidence analysis, crime scene recreation, understanding of human psych etc...all of which makes me a skilled and analytical researcher in the subject of religion.

However, in the end...WHO gives a fuck? Degrees are just scraps of paper that are an indicator of time and money spent to acquire them...not an indication of intelligence, or comprehension skills, or even knowledge. College is ridiculously easy, I put about 5-10% effort in all of my classes, and still get straight A's. Point? Even if you have a degree in ancient egyptological studies it would not be an indicator of your ability to comprehend the material, and explain it to others. A degree is not correlated to intelligence or even knowledge, it is an indicator of time. One would like to think if one pursued education in a field one gains knowledge, but sadly that isn't always the fact. Most of my fellow students are religious, and it is apparent that faith blocks their ability to learn, because anything presented that goes against their limited view of the world through their god glasses, they dismiss.

I would submit to you there are many on this board who have zero higher education that can out debate you on your own religion, or probably on life in general because of their life experience and intelligence. Then there are also many on here with much higher education then me, published authors, scientists, biblical scholars and logic experts who make me look like a small child in regards to theology, why arent they debating you? Because they don't bother to waste the time and effort on one so obviously clueless about this subject. Unlike you, I can actually explain what I post, and usually if it is a copy/paste I provide the link. if I merged my online and offline research with my own interpretation and words, then I may not provide a link as it has changed too much. Your ability to type "disprove mormon critics arguments" or "mormonism is true" or "disprove DNA argument against mormonism"...into google and then copy the search results and paste it on the forum with the addition of "back to you" with a smug smile like you actually applied any thought or knowledge is a reflection of academic dishonesty....like your religion's founder..


I removed my name from my online transcript below, but not the number of credits and GPA, just so you don't think I am some online wannabe making up shit...I am transparent Alla, and it truly bothers me that you have allowed yourself to be so brainwashed and indoctrinated in your delusion.....

[Image: 72b0c8.png]

Well.....

Tongue................Big Grin.....................Smartass...................Thumbsup

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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