Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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15-09-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 11:07 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 10:26 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Peace: well no one is really against the idea of peace.

Waste not: well no one is really against that idea either.

The four winds: what the hell is that supposed to mean?

the circle of life: that's a fact; things are born and die; nothing special here.

greed and selfishness being evil: well depending on how you define selfishness, pretty much no one would think that's false.

Congratulation, you have demonstrated that every single phisolophical schools and theology have a few points in common. Which is something we all knew for centuries. Yay?

To add on to Epronovost's point...

and the commonalities exist why pops? because as man grew into tribes and wandered the earth, and came across one another again later, one of the commodities traded was stories....people love to tell stories dont they...and what is the natural and very common element of good story telling? embellishment...the storytellers concocting bigger and bigger and more unreal stories...dragons....flying corpses and jesus oh my....so each generational retelling and exchanging of stories would fall along common themes wouldn't they? The best inventive, stories would be retold, and shared and embellished. Every ancient society had some version of a "big flood".....yes...it rains, earth gives, storms occur, and *gasp* floods happen. With each retelling the story gets bigger...the whole village was washed away...the whole mountain was washed away...the whole world was drowned except for your great great grandfather and his wife, for whom the magic god Norrg spared their lives, as they were good people, and gave them many blessings...Rolleyes

The fact that many ancient civilizations have a flood story is not an indication of the validity of a "global flood' (because by and large there is no evidence of a global flood occurring at the same time, worldwide, an Extinction Life Level Event), but there is evidence of regional floods at various times throughout history. Now as far as passed on stories...the mythical biblical global flood that covered the earth under 40 feet of water...was actually based on older myths, in the case of the flood, from the Epic of Gilgamesh....and that on an even older story...the Genesis flood narrative matches that in Gilgamesh so closely that "few doubt" that it derives from a Mesopotamian account. What is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the story permits other alternatives. In a 2001 Torah commentary released on behalf of the Conservative Movement of Judaism, rabbinic scholar Robert Wexler stated: "The most likely assumption we can make is that both Genesis and Gilgamesh drew their material from a common tradition about the flood that existed in Mesopotamia. These stories then diverged in the retelling."

Aren't stories fun?

Wow, did i go off track? lol

My point was all of the biblical BS can be traced back to older "stories"...parables, myths, and various other oral concoctions.

Here to help pops. Good luck with your studies.....
Not sure if you intended to have a point. You missed it widely if so. Pretending that attempts at derailing an objective of someone you don't agree with as help is a poor attempt at passive aggressiveness. Perhaps your best though.
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15-09-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 11:12 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 11:07 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  To add on to Epronovost's point...

and the commonalities exist why pops? because as man grew into tribes and wandered the earth, and came across one another again later, one of the commodities traded was stories....people love to tell stories dont they...and what is the natural and very common element of good story telling? embellishment...the storytellers concocting bigger and bigger and more unreal stories...dragons....flying corpses and jesus oh my....so each generational retelling and exchanging of stories would fall along common themes wouldn't they? The best inventive, stories would be retold, and shared and embellished. Every ancient society had some version of a "big flood".....yes...it rains, earth gives, storms occur, and *gasp* floods happen. With each retelling the story gets bigger...the whole village was washed away...the whole mountain was washed away...the whole world was drowned except for your great great grandfather and his wife, for whom the magic god Norrg spared their lives, as they were good people, and gave them many blessings...Rolleyes

The fact that many ancient civilizations have a flood story is not an indication of the validity of a "global flood' (because by and large there is no evidence of a global flood occurring at the same time, worldwide, an Extinction Life Level Event), but there is evidence of regional floods at various times throughout history. Now as far as passed on stories...the mythical biblical global flood that covered the earth under 40 feet of water...was actually based on older myths, in the case of the flood, from the Epic of Gilgamesh....and that on an even older story...the Genesis flood narrative matches that in Gilgamesh so closely that "few doubt" that it derives from a Mesopotamian account. What is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the story permits other alternatives. In a 2001 Torah commentary released on behalf of the Conservative Movement of Judaism, rabbinic scholar Robert Wexler stated: "The most likely assumption we can make is that both Genesis and Gilgamesh drew their material from a common tradition about the flood that existed in Mesopotamia. These stories then diverged in the retelling."

Aren't stories fun?

Wow, did i go off track? lol

My point was all of the biblical BS can be traced back to older "stories"...parables, myths, and various other oral concoctions.

Here to help pops. Good luck with your studies.....
Not sure if you intended to have a point. You missed it widely if so. Pretending that attempts at derailing an objective of someone you don't agree with as help is a poor attempt at passive aggressiveness. Perhaps your best though.

nah, just been awake for two days, and leaving in 5 mins for the gym. My best? lol. Pops I would, could, and should mop the floor with your ass in regards to anything related to theology. I am not passive anything, goes against everything that I am. I enjoy stomping the shit out of those who are infected with faith, using their own fabricated teachings against them. Perhaps that degree in religious studies with specialization in christianity wasn't a total waste of money and time afterall. Big Grin

Speaking of derailing, this was a thread on mormonism, and my complete evisceration of it, and our mormon pinata alla. carry on though. Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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15-09-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 11:39 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 11:12 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Not sure if you intended to have a point. You missed it widely if so. Pretending that attempts at derailing an objective of someone you don't agree with as help is a poor attempt at passive aggressiveness. Perhaps your best though.

nah, just been awake for two days, and leaving in 5 mins for the gym. My best? lol. Pops I would, could, and should mop the floor with your ass in regards to anything related to theology. I am not passive anything, goes against everything that I am. I enjoy stomping the shit out of those who are infected with faith, using their own fabricated teachings against them. Perhaps that degree in religious studies with specialization in christianity wasn't a total waste of money and time afterall. Big Grin

Speaking of derailing, this was a thread on mormonism, and my complete evisceration of it, and our mormon pinata alla. carry on though. Thumbsup
Talk is cheap. Don't falsely claim to be helping someone when you intend to hurt them. And yes that is passive aggressive.
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15-09-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 01:46 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 11:39 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  nah, just been awake for two days, and leaving in 5 mins for the gym. My best? lol. Pops I would, could, and should mop the floor with your ass in regards to anything related to theology. I am not passive anything, goes against everything that I am. I enjoy stomping the shit out of those who are infected with faith, using their own fabricated teachings against them. Perhaps that degree in religious studies with specialization in christianity wasn't a total waste of money and time afterall. Big Grin

Speaking of derailing, this was a thread on mormonism, and my complete evisceration of it, and our mormon pinata alla. carry on though. Thumbsup
Talk is cheap. Don't falsely claim to be helping someone when you intend to hurt them. And yes that is passive aggressive.

Passive aggressive: of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials.

Definition fail on your part pops.

no indirect resistance here pops, I have, and will always be, direct, overly assertive, confident and non-apologetic about my anti religious stance. Religious belief is an infection, needing a stiff series of debunking shots in order to potentially cure it. I can't help you if I sugar coat shit. Placating delusional beliefs with hugs and pats on the back is disingenuous, and ineffective. If someone presents a belief in a fairy tale, and we practice tolerance of such belief, we encourage it, and imply by non-engagement that it is okay, and religion is anything but okay. it is the disease that is rotting and destroying mankind. Be part of the cure pops....evolve beyond the myth.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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15-09-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 02:24 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 01:46 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Talk is cheap. Don't falsely claim to be helping someone when you intend to hurt them. And yes that is passive aggressive.

Passive aggressive: of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials.

Definition fail on your part pops.

no indirect resistance here pops, I have, and will always be, direct, overly assertive, confident and non-apologetic about my anti religious stance. Religious belief is an infection, needing a stiff series of debunking shots in order to potentially cure it. I can't help you if I sugar coat shit. Placating delusional beliefs with hugs and pats on the back is disingenuous, and ineffective. If someone presents a belief in a fairy tale, and we practice tolerance of such belief, we encourage it, and imply by non-engagement that it is okay, and religion is anything but okay. it is the disease that is rotting and destroying mankind. Be part of the cure pops....evolve beyond the myth.
Misguided representation of religion is what you seem to have a problem with. As do I. So it could be said that I am working to fix this as well, just in a different way than you. Bigots, and self righteous swindlers of the sheep must be stopped or detoured in a peaceful manner as far as I am concerned. Insisting that many are victims of false religion is okay. Stating that all religion whatsoever is false is an opinion and a negative thing that will only bring more resistance to your somewhat honorable cause. I think I understand where you are coming from, but stereotyping all religion as a fear mongering weak seducing manipulation for self gain of the powers to be is, well, a stereotype. It's like saying that all atheist and scientist are under the impression that only the material is reality. This may be mostly a true statement, but the key word is mostly, which make a it a stereotype. Did that make sense? Really, no sarcasm intended. Thank you. Could we be getting somewhere? I won't hold my breath. But I can still hope.
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15-09-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 02:35 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 02:24 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Passive aggressive: of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials.

Definition fail on your part pops.

no indirect resistance here pops, I have, and will always be, direct, overly assertive, confident and non-apologetic about my anti religious stance. Religious belief is an infection, needing a stiff series of debunking shots in order to potentially cure it. I can't help you if I sugar coat shit. Placating delusional beliefs with hugs and pats on the back is disingenuous, and ineffective. If someone presents a belief in a fairy tale, and we practice tolerance of such belief, we encourage it, and imply by non-engagement that it is okay, and religion is anything but okay. it is the disease that is rotting and destroying mankind. Be part of the cure pops....evolve beyond the myth.
Misguided representation of religion is what you seem to have a problem with. As do I. So it could be said that I am working to fix this as well, just in a different way than you. Bigots, and self righteous swindlers of the sheep must be stopped or detoured in a peaceful manner as far as I am concerned. Insisting that many are victims of false religion is okay. Stating that all religion whatsoever is false is an opinion and a negative thing that will only bring more resistance to your somewhat honorable cause. I think I understand where you are coming from, but stereotyping all religion as a fear mongering weak seducing manipulation for self gain of the powers to be is, well, a stereotype. It's like saying that all atheist and scientist are under the impression that only the material is reality. This may be mostly a true statement, but the key word is mostly, which make a it a stereotype. Did that make sense? Really, no sarcasm intended. Thank you. Could we be getting somewhere? I won't hold my breath. But I can still hope.

I engage different people in different ways. I work on deconverting religious people in other venues to include offline and have for years. All religions can be disproven, because their basis can be traced back to its creation, their holy books debunked, and their posits falsified. Some religious people truly strive to do good work, and do positive social endeavors, but religion isn't necessary for that, there are a plethora of secular organizations that do the same thing, without handing out pamphlets, scripture, or trading rice for participation in brainwashing classes. So since religion is a false methodology of epistemology, it should be discarded and replaced with logic, reason, and humanistic perspectives.

I used to just ignore religion as it has no meaning to me, but then again, as I have stated before I can no longer just look the other way. You have to study the effects of religion, and most major religions to be able to identify the bad emotional impacts subjugation causes. Also on the thought that "why take away faith if it helps people get through the day"...I've never really understood how removing a bad way to reason will make it difficult to get through the day. If anything, it would seem that correcting someone's reasoning would significantly increase their chances of getting through their day.

With reliable forms of reasoning comes the capability of crafting conditions that enable people to navigate life's obstacles. By using a more reliable form of reasoning, people are more capable of bringing about conditions that enable them to flourish.

To argue that people need faith is to abandon hope, and to condescend and accuse the faithful of being incapable of understanding the importance of reason and rationality. There are better and worse ways to come to terms with death, to find strength during times of personal crisis, to make meaning and purpose in our lives, to interpret our sense of awe and wonder, and to contribute to human well-being...and the faithful are completely capable of understanding and achieving this..if they would only try.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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15-09-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 02:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 02:35 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Misguided representation of religion is what you seem to have a problem with. As do I. So it could be said that I am working to fix this as well, just in a different way than you. Bigots, and self righteous swindlers of the sheep must be stopped or detoured in a peaceful manner as far as I am concerned. Insisting that many are victims of false religion is okay. Stating that all religion whatsoever is false is an opinion and a negative thing that will only bring more resistance to your somewhat honorable cause. I think I understand where you are coming from, but stereotyping all religion as a fear mongering weak seducing manipulation for self gain of the powers to be is, well, a stereotype. It's like saying that all atheist and scientist are under the impression that only the material is reality. This may be mostly a true statement, but the key word is mostly, which make a it a stereotype. Did that make sense? Really, no sarcasm intended. Thank you. Could we be getting somewhere? I won't hold my breath. But I can still hope.

I engage different people in different ways. I work on deconverting religious people in other venues to include offline and have for years. All religions can be disproven, because their basis can be traced back to its creation, their holy books debunked, and their posits falsified. Some religious people truly strive to do good work, and do positive social endeavors, but religion isn't necessary for that, there are a plethora of secular organizations that do the same thing, without handing out pamphlets, scripture, or trading rice for participation in brainwashing classes. So since religion is a false methodology of epistemology, it should be discarded and replaced with logic, reason, and humanistic perspectives.

I used to just ignore religion as it has no meaning to me, but then again, as I have stated before I can no longer just look the other way. You have to study the effects of religion, and most major religions to be able to identify the bad emotional impacts subjugation causes. Also on the thought that "why take away faith if it helps people get through the day"...I've never really understood how removing a bad way to reason will make it difficult to get through the day. If anything, it would seem that correcting someone's reasoning would significantly increase their chances of getting through their day.

With reliable forms of reasoning comes the capability of crafting conditions that enable people to navigate life's obstacles. By using a more reliable form of reasoning, people are more capable of bringing about conditions that enable them to flourish.

To argue that people need faith is to abandon hope, and to condescend and accuse the faithful of being incapable of understanding the importance of reason and rationality. There are better and worse ways to come to terms with death, to find strength during times of personal crisis, to make meaning and purpose in our lives, to interpret our sense of awe and wonder, and to contribute to human well-being...and the faithful are completely capable of understanding and achieving this..if they would only try.
I agree. There is only one problem; it has been shown to me directly that there is a God. Secondly, I have helped a few people with my words under God that where other wise lost and doomed to continue in torment. Not because they lacked logic but because they lacked hope and Faith in their self, and their fellow man, which is completely understandable if one observes the society we live in with any logical aptitude. To assert that faithful individuals lack common logic and reasoning abilities is just false. To say that logic begs to assert only the material is also false. Have you researched Buddhism at all. These individuals spend there hole life trying to come to logical explanations and peace within self. Not one of them will state that everything in reality is confined to three or even four dimensions. Furthermore; many scientists don't even believe this and their job is to prove unfalsifiable truth.
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15-09-2015, 03:06 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
GOODWITHOUTGOD:
God Indwells the Righteous
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false." BOM contradicts D&C

ALLA:
False doctrine that God literally dwells in hearts of people.
Symbolically God dwells in our hearts.
God the Holly Ghost has influence on us that is why symbolically we can say that God dwells in our hearts.
Gods have bodies, they can not dwell in anybody's hearts literally.
GWG, do you see? there is no contradiction.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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15-09-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
GOODWITHOUTGOD:

Silk
Alma 4:6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine SILKS, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.

Jews didn't have silk then. The Jews didn't have silk at that time 86-83 B.C.

ALLA
http://www.evidencesofmormon.org/evidenc...ormon.aspx

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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15-09-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(15-09-2015 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  GOODWITHOUTGOD:

Silk
Alma 4:6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine SILKS, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.

Jews didn't have silk then. The Jews didn't have silk at that time 86-83 B.C.

ALLA
http://www.evidencesofmormon.org/evidenc...ormon.aspx

Alla, I've studied textiles my entire life, I work with textiles all day long. I have a degree in textiles. Yes, silk was in existence during this time but the Ancient Greeks and Romans enacted Sumptuary Laws which excluded wearing silk by anyone other than the very highest ranking individuals and anyone caught wearing certain fabrics, especially silk, were fined, jailed or worse. The Jews were not allowed to wear silk. They wore linen and wool.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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