Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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04-08-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 09:48 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  oh my, perhaps you are a PROPHET of god!!!!
No, I am not a Prophet of God. But every child of God can be called a prophet if she or he receives personal revelations from God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Ask your LDS father. He should know this. He should tell you the same thing.

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04-08-2015, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 10:37 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:20 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 09:43 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The church has gone through ten versions of the “first vision”…which is the point.
Good point. So

“I want to discuss only what Joseph Smith said/wrote himself.”

Sure, here you go….for the third time:

1) So important is this vision that it is published as scripture to the Mormon people in a book known as The Pearl of Great Price. This official version was taken from the early LDS publication Times and Seasons, which originally published it on April 1, 1842 (pp. 748-749). Joseph Smith wrote this account of the vision in 1838, 18 years after it supposedly happened.

2) On March 1, 1842, the Times and Seasons published contents of a letter written by Joseph Smith to John Wentworth. This was published one full month before the account that is accepted as the official version today. In this one, Joseph Smith did not give his age. He mentioned no evil power overcoming him, and he said two personages visited him, though he never identifies them. It is significant that he did not mention the evil power that played so prominently in the story and also that he omitted that the personages visiting him were supposedly God the Father and Jesus Christ.

3) The earliest known account of the first vision was written in 1831-32 in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. This was the version made public by
Paul Cheesman in 1965, published later that same year by Jerald and Sandra Tanner in Joseph Smith's Strange Account of the First Vision. This account had been in the hands of LDS leaders for over 130 years, hidden away in their vaults – presumably because it differs so greatly from the official version. In this account, Smith claimed to be 16 years old and that he already knew that all churches were wrong from reading the Bible. Joseph sought forgiveness, and it was Jesus alone who visited him and forgave his sins.

Discuss away…..

This is three distinctly different versions written by the founder himself. When you dig yourself out of that hole we can go onto the plethora of other information I have endeavored to provide you….the DNA issue, and the plagiarism of KJV. I have ony begun child, I warned you…I know Mormonism.
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Good. Thank you.
1)I do not see contradiction between these accounts.
2)It is common for people not to tell the whole account about an experience. Sometimes we can tell only some parts of it. It depends on what we want to emphasize and to whom we speak.
About third account where it says that JS was 16 years old. I do not know why. But I can not make any conclusions on what I do not know/do not understand.
But this is such a small error.
Shall we discuss the video? or you have something else to add?
(04-08-2015 09:43 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Which level of heaven are you destined to go to I wonder? I bet you think Celestial Laughat
Offtopic
[/quote]


................................................................................​.........................

Who visited Joseph? Angels, Jesus, god, or both jesus and god? Kind of a big difference don't you think?

Keep tapdancing Alla, it isn't like your efforts aren't transparent to all who watch Smile

"I can not make any conclusions on what I do not know/do not understand."

I agree, there is much you do not know, or understand.

You wish to discuss the video that exposes the fraud of Joseph Smith? Sure, we can get into the DNA issue, the infamous "book of Abraham", and the plagiarism of KJV later once you get done tapdancing around the video. Smartass

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, what would it take to actually convince you he was just a liar ?
Proof that he lied.
(04-08-2015 10:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  His wife thought he was a liar.
OK, let's assume it is true statement/claim. How can I know this?
(04-08-2015 10:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  She understood that he just wanted to have sex with other women, including her best friends.
OK, let's assume it is true. How do I know that she understood this?

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04-08-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:26 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 09:48 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  oh my, perhaps you are a PROPHET of god!!!!
No, I am not a Prophet of God. But every child of God can be called a prophet if she or he receives personal revelations from God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Ask your LDS father. He should know this. He should tell you the same thing.

Truly? Now how does one ascertain one is the child of god, and which god by the way? How does one pontificate one received personal revelations from god?

Matthew 7:15–23
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

The list of delusional people who purport that 'god" spoke to them is long, as is the list of alleged "prophets".........delusion is a popular mental condition it seems, one in which you imbibe on often apparently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pe...o_be_Jesus

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:30 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 10:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, what would it take to actually convince you he was just a liar ?
Proof that he lied.
(04-08-2015 10:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  His wife thought he was a liar.
OK, let's assume it is true statement/claim. How can I know this?
(04-08-2015 10:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  She understood that he just wanted to have sex with other women, including her best friends.
OK, let's assume it is true. How do I know that she understood this?

Convictions and trails of investigations with evidence convincing the cases against him of illegal financial workings & fraud is not enough evidence of lying?

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04-08-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Who visited Joseph? Angels, Jesus, god, or both jesus and god? Kind of a big difference don't you think?
Not really. At least to me. At lest to LDS Doctrine.
If JS said:
1)"Angels" it could mean "Gods". Angels can be called Gods, Gods can be called Angels according to LDS Doctrine.
2)"God" or both Gods(Jesus and Father)?
Doesn't matter:
Father and Son are One, if one God appeared I can say "God", if two Gods appeared I still can say "God" not nessaserilly "Gods".
Are you sure you know LDS Doctrine?
(04-08-2015 10:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  You wish to discuss the video? Sure, we can get into the DNA issue, the infamous "book of Abraham", and the plagiarism of KJV later once you get done tapdancing around the video. Smartass
Yes, I would discuss it(video). I have some a questions. I hope you can provide some answers. Smile
P.S. I am not tapdancing. I am telling what I think.
I am telling you that:
1)there are no contradictions in these three accounts accept that in account there is one minor error - age.
2)I explained to you (according LDS Doctrine) when we talk about BOTH God Father and God Son we can say:
a) Gods
b) God
3) Angels
It really doesn't matter. When we hear "God" we think about BOTH of Them. When we hear "Gods" we think about BOTH of Them.
When we hear "Angels" we know that it could mean Gods.

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04-08-2015, 10:45 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:36 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 10:30 AM)Alla Wrote:  Proof that he lied.
OK, let's assume it is true statement/claim. How can I know this?
OK, let's assume it is true. How do I know that she understood this?

Convictions and trails of investigations with evidence convincing the cases against him of illegal financial workings & fraud is not enough evidence of lying?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smi...ice_system

In New York (1817–30)

BainbridgeBainbridge

Smith was born in Vermont in 1805, and his family moved to New York in 1817. At age 20, Smith—described in court records as "Joseph the glasslooker"—faced his first criminal charge, a misdemeanor count of being a "disorderly person". In 1830, he faced the same charge. Smith left New York for Ohio.

Disorderly person, March 1826

On March 20, 1826, Smith was arrested by Constable Philip De Zeng and brought to court in Bainbridge, New York, on the complaint of Josiah Stowell's nephew, who accused Smith of being "a disorderly person and an imposter." An anonymous writer claimed to have been given access to an account of court proceedings, which was published in Fraser's Magazine during 1873. In it, Smith described his divination methods.

[Smith said] he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business. [...] And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty. Costs: Warrant, 19c. Complaint upon oath, 25 1/2c. Seven witnesses, 87 1/2c. Recognisances, 25c. Mittimus, 19c. Recognisances of witnesses, 75c. Subpoena, 18c. - $2.68.


New York v. Joseph Smith (1826)

This account has been corroborated by later discoveries, such as Justice Neely's bill of costs which refers to Joseph Smith as "The Glass Looker," (i.e. a diviner), discovered in 1971 by Wesley P. Walters. The total costs exactly matched the amount in Fraser's Magazine. However, other contradictory accounts of the trial have also been published which brings the authenticity of the accounts into question. In 1838, Joseph Smith stated that he had, in fact, worked for Josiah Stowell but Smith avoided mentioning the court hearing and downplayed his role by claiming to be a mere bystander. Smith said that Stowell had heard of a lost Spanish silver mine near Harmony, Pennsylvania, and wanted to find it. According to Smith, Stowell "took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger."

Disorderly person, June 1830

Constable Ebenezer Hatch arrested Smith on June 30, 1830, held him over night, and brought him before Justice Joseph P. Chamberlin on a charge of being a disorderly person. Smith was transported to South Bainbridge, New York. His two-day trial took place in late June, ending on July 1, 1830, and he was defended by two attorneys hired by Joseph Knight. Smith was acquitted.Immediately after his release, however, he was arrested again and transported back to Colesville for a second trial; he was acquitted again.

In Ohio (1831–38)

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system is located in Ohio KirtlandKirtland
Kirtland, in Lake County, Ohio

In Ohio, Smith faced numerous charges, including charges of illegal banking and banking fraud. In 1838, he fled Ohio for Missouri.

Illegal banking, February 1837

In February 1837, Samuel D. Rounds swore a writ against Smith and Sidney Rigdon for illegal banking and issuing unauthorized bank paper. At a hearing on March 24, the court found sufficient evidence for the case to go to trial. In October, Smith and Rigdon were tried in absentia after having left Ohio for Upper Canada. They were each found guilty and each fined $1000.

"He was arrested seven times in four months, and his followers managed heroically to raise the $38,428 required for bail."

Conspiracy to murder Newell, June 1837


According to Grandison Newell, Smith had conspired with Solomon Denton and Marvel C. Davis to murder him for Newell's impugning the integrity of the founders of the Kirtland Safety Society.

On June 3, Smith appeared before Justice Flint in a preliminary hearing. Orson Hyde testified that "Smith seemed much excited and declared that Newell should be put out of the way, or where the crows could not find him: he said destroying Newell would be justifiable in the sight of God, that it was the will of God". Denton testified that he, along with Davis, were tasked with murdering Newell. According to Denton, Smith spoke of "Newell; said he had injured the society, and that it was better for one man to suffer than to have the whole community disturbed; that it was the will of Heaven that Newell should be put out of the way, and that he would take the responsibility, for the deed was justifiable in the sight of God, and would be rewarded: but when we had killed him, he wanted his body secreted if possible."

Smith was released on a $500 bond.

On June 9, at hearing before the County Court, Smith appeared and the charges against him were dismissed.

Banking fraud, 1838

After a warrant was issued for Smith's arrest on a charge of banking fraud, Smith and Rigdon fled Kirtland for Missouri on the night of January 12, 1838.

In Missouri (1838–39)

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system is located in Missouri Far WestFar West
Far West, in Caldwell County, Missouri

While in Missouri, Smith faced charges of threatening a public official and later, treason. He was allowed to escape custody and fled to Illinois.

Threats to Judge Adam Black, August 1838

On August 8, Smith led an armed group of over a hundred and surrounded the home of Justice of the Peace Adam Black, who had been elected Judge two days earlier. William P. Peniston gave a sworn statement about the events, and on August 10, 1838, Judge King issued a warrant for the arrest of Smith and Lyman Wight. On August 28, Judge Black gave his own sworn statement of the events.

Sheriff Morgan attempted to arrest Wight, but arrived at Wight's home only to find Wight was protected by an armed force of about 100 men. Missouri newspapers reported that Wight had said "that he would not be taken alive—that the law had never protected him, and he owed them no obedience—that the whole state of Missouri could not take him".

Testimony of William P. Peniston and Adam Black

Around August 16, Sheriff William Morgan (of Daviess County), accompanied by Judge Morin, traveled to Far West in Caldwell County, to serve the warrant on Smith. Smith refused to return to Daviess County.

On September 7, Judge King conducted a hearing and found sufficient evidence to send the case to a grand jury. Smith was released on a $500 bond.

Missouri treason case, November 1838–39

Main article: 1838 Mormon War

After the surrender of Mormon forces in on November 2, 1838, Smith was surrendered to authorities, arrested and imprisoned in the jail at Liberty, Missouri. On November 12, 1838, Judge King found "probable cause to believe that Joseph Smith, Jr, Lyman Wight, Hiram Smith, Alexander McRay & Caleb Baldwin are guilty of Overt acts of Treason in Daviess County". Smith and other Mormons continued to be held at Liberty Jail.

After a hearing conducted April 9–11, 1839, Smith was indicted by grand jury on the charge of treason.

On April 16, 1839, Smith and his companions were permitted to escape custody while they were being escorted to Boone County. Smith fled across the border to Illinois. Missouri would spend several years attempting to apprehend and extradite Smith.

In Illinois (1839–44)

Nauvoo, in Hancock County, IL
After fleeing Missouri, Smith faced attempts to extradite him to Missouri on charges of treason and conspiracy to commit murder. Illinois officials charged Smith with incitement of a riot and later, treason against Illinois.

Smith was killed by a mob while he was jailed awaiting trial.

Arrest for fleeing Missouri, 1841

On June 5, 1841, Smith was arrested as a fugitive from Missouri justice. On June 10, he was freed by Judge Stephen A. Douglas.

Conspiracy to murder Governor Boggs, 1842–43

Main article: Attempted assassination of Lilburn Boggs

On August 8, 1842, Smith and Porter Rockwell were arrested by Illinois law enforcement for their alleged roles in the attempted assassination of former Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs. The Municipal Court of Nauvoo released Smith and Rockwell, after which they went into hiding. Smith ultimately surrendered to authorities on December 30, and in on January 2, 1843, the extradition warrant was quashed by a federal judge in Springfield.

Missouri treason case, June 1843

On June 6, 1843, Smith was indicted by a grand jury in the circuit court of Daviess County, Missouri, on the charge of treason against the state. On June 13, 1843, Governor Reynolds dispatched Sheriff Joseph H. Reynolds to apprehend Smith. In Illinois, Reynolds was joined by Constable Harmon T. Wilson of Hancock County, Illinois. On June 21, the two placed Smith under arrest near Dixon, Illinois.

Once they had Smith in their custody, Reynolds and Wilson were themselves placed under arrest by Sheriff Campbell of Lee County, Illinois. Campbell transported Smith, Reynolds, and Wilson to the Municipal Court of Nauvoo. On July 1, the Municipal Court of Nauvoo quashed the warrant and freed Smith.

Perjury, fornication and polygamy, May 1844
In May 1844, a Hancock County grand jury indicted Smith for perjury, fornication and polygamy. The charge of perjury was based on testimony by Joseph H. Jackson and Robert D. Foster, while William Law's testimony led to charges of fornication and polygamy. Smith appeared before the Circuit Court and his trial was postponed until the next term of the court.

Inciting a riot destroying the Nauvoo Expositor, June 1844

The Nauvoo Expositor was a newspaper that published only one issue, which was dated June 7, 1844. The Expositor was founded by several seceders from Smith's church and was critical of Smith and other church leaders. Those who published the Expositor espoused a belief in Mormonism, but criticized Smith for doctrines such as plural marriage and exaltation.

As mayor, Smith and the Nauvoo City Council declared the newspaper a public nuisance and ordered the press destroyed. The town marshal carried out the order that evening.

On June 11, the Hancock County Justice of the Peace issued a warrant for the arrest of Smith and 17 other individuals on charges of inciting a riot. Constable David Bettisworth was tasked with arresting Smith and conveying him to the Hancock County Court. Rather than return with Bettisworth court, Smith instead petitioned the Municipal Court of Nauvoo to dismiss the charges.

Smith declared martial law in Nauvoo on June 18 and called out the Nauvoo Legion, an organized city militia of about 5,000 men. In response, Governor Ford organized a state militia to arrest Smith.

Smith fled Illinois to avoid arrest, crossing the Mississippi River into Iowa. On June 23, a posse under the command of the governor entered Nauvoo to execute the arrest warrant, but they were unable to locate Smith.

On June 25, Smith and his co-defendants surrendered to Constable Bettisworth on the original charge of inciting a riot. An arraignment was held on the rioting charge and Justice Robert F. Smith granted bail of $500 for each of the defendants.

Treason against Illinois, June 1844

After bail was granted under the previous charge, Augustine Spencer immediately swore out a warrant alleging that Smith had committed treason by "calling out the [Nauvoo] Legion to resist the force under the command of the Governor." On June 24, 1844, a warrant was issued charging that "Joseph Smith, late of the county aforesaid, did, on or about the nineteenth day of June. A. D. 1844, at the county and state aforesaid, commit the crime of treason against the government and people of the State of Illinois".

Bail could not be granted for a charge of treason, so Smith was placed in jail where he was accompanied by his brother, Hyrum Smith, and other associates. On June 27, Smith and Hyrum were killed by a mob in jail while they were awaiting trial.

Sounds like a fine outstanding citizen...someone god would choose to teach his people the true word of god....no...really... Big Grin

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:36 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 10:30 AM)Alla Wrote:  Proof that he lied.
OK, let's assume it is true statement/claim. How can I know this?
OK, let's assume it is true. How do I know that she understood this?

Convictions and trails of investigations with evidence convincing the cases against him of illegal financial workings & fraud is not enough evidence of lying?
It could be evidence
1) if I am convinced that witnesses didn't lie. That witness were 100% honest.
If I am convinced that witness NEVER lie when they swear on the Bible.
2)If I am convinced that we never had a case when innocent person was sentenced to death or to some/many years in prison.
back to you

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04-08-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:43 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 10:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Who visited Joseph? Angels, Jesus, god, or both jesus and god? Kind of a big difference don't you think?
Not really. At least to me. At lest to LDS Doctrine.
If JS said:
1)"Angels" it could mean "Gods". Angels can be called Gods, Gods can be called Angels according to LDS Doctrine.
2)"God" or both Gods(Jesus and Father)?
Doesn't matter:
Father and Son are One, if one God appeared I can say "God", if two Gods appeared I still can say "God" not nessaserilly "Gods".
Are you sure you know LDS Doctrine?
(04-08-2015 10:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  You wish to discuss the video? Sure, we can get into the DNA issue, the infamous "book of Abraham", and the plagiarism of KJV later once you get done tapdancing around the video. Smartass
Yes, I would discuss it(video). I have some a questions. I hope you can provide some answers. Smile
P.S. I am not tapdancing. I am telling what I think.
I am telling you that:
1)there are no contradictions in these three accounts accept that in account there is one minor error - age.
2)I explained to you (according LDS Doctrine) when we talk about BOTH God Father and God Son we can say:
a) Gods
b) God
3) Angels
It really doesn't matter. When we hear "God" we think about BOTH of Them. When we hear "Gods" we think about BOTH of Them.
When we hear "Angels" we know that it could mean Gods.

Doctrine: is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or belief system.

Key word there is belief system, which has no bearing on fact, reality, or truth. You do understand this right? I can purport that I believe Norrg, the creator of all living things who resides inside hollow Uranus is the Supreme Being. This is my belief system, based upon the teachings of the church of Norrg. Since the teachings of Norrg can be proven to be bullshit, with no basis in reality, debunked by archaeological, astrophysics, fossil record, and historical analysis then my belief system based on my religion's doctrinal teachings is not the litmus test for truth.

Get it?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 10:32 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Truly? Now how does one ascertain one is the child of god, and which god by the way? How does one pontificate one received personal revelations from god?
Why would I discuss this with true atheist? True atheist doesn't need to know this. But I will respond to the arguments of true atheist about LDS Doctrine. Smile

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