Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
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04-08-2015, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 12:26 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 12:04 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  For those that are watching, to ensure you are familiar with terminology specific to this flavor of delusion, I provide the following:

Biblical Terms Redefined by Mormons

Mormons often use common terms that to them have completely different meanings than those used in the Bible or by orthodox Christian churches. Mormons may say they believe in "Jesus Christ," trust in the "scriptures," believe they are "saved by grace," and have been "born-again". They will talk about "eternal life" and things like "heaven," but they rarely explain what they mean when they use such terminology.

Holding back information is especially a problem with Mormons in the mission field. It is not uncommon for Mormon missionaries to purposely refrain from discussing doctrines which clearly separate Mormonism from the usual perception of Christianity. They are well aware that to do otherwise would risk any chance of a return visit. In many foreign countries the local population is at a severe disadvantage. Very few books are printed in their native language which critically examine LDS teachings. In many areas they do not even have a translated set of the standard works. At best they may have a copy of the Book of Mormon (or selections). Since the Book of Mormon does not reflect modern LDS teaching on many critical issues, this only adds to the deception 10.

Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:

AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.

AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.

APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.

ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.

EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.

GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.

GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

Telestial - where unbelievers go

Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the

Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.

HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.

HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.

JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.

JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.

MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.

MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.

POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.

PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.

PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.

PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.

SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:

"There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation" (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).

"All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected" (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ", LDS tract, p.28).
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".

General salvation- in Mormon theology, the death of Christ ransoms men from the effects of the fall (Mormon Doctrine, p.62), except for a few sons of perdition who fell with Lucifer. Thus, all mankind will eventually receive general salvation because all men will be resurrected.

Individual salvation - to obtain individual salvation, the standards set forth by the Mormon church must be met. This comes by grace plus baptism plus works.
Exaltation - different degrees of exaltation

Eternal life on the other hand is reserved for the elite few who qualify and are found worthy of this "honor" or "reward" and who will move on to be "exalted." This salvation is in fact the personal "exaltation" or the fast track of the "eternal progression" process in attaining your own self-made status of godhood in order to people your own planet.

SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.

SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.

SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.
STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.

TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.

TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).

VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.

WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).

So this is what I was talking about. Smith was a complete idiot when it came to mainline Protestanism. He was ignorant, basically. He had no education. So he had heard these terms, but had no clue what they meant, so he cooked up his own BS, which, in any other circumstance would have been tossed out as "heresy" in the context of any traditional Christian tradition. Mormonism is not a form of Christianity.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-08-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 11:28 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 11:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are mountains of proof that he lied about all kinds of things. First, he lied about translating the Egyptian hierglyphs. We know now, they said nothing even remotely what he represented them to have said. He was a complete fraud.
OK, I assume it is the truth. So, please tell me(ignorant one) how do we(YOU) know this?
(04-08-2015 11:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_emmasmith.html
http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Joseph-Smi...n-sources.
http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/josemma.htm
Oh, I will check these websites, may be the answer is here.
P.S. No, not here. So, how do we know that he lied about hieroglyphs?

We know he lied about the hieroglyphs, because REAL Egyptologists have now translated them, correctly. The Rosetta Stone was not discovered and the ability to translate hieroglyphs was not available in the US at the time he claimed to do it. He was a 110 % lying son-of-a-bitch FRAUD.
https://carm.org/book-abraham-papyri-and-joseph-smith
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/how...mormonism/

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04-08-2015, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 12:51 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 11:56 AM)Alla Wrote:  Now I get to the segment were they found papyri.
1) Do I understand correctly that they believe that this is the one that Joseph Smith had?
2) Do I understand correctly that they believe or KNOW that this papuri that they found shows
a) God Anubus who is standing
b) dead dude who is on the bier
c) God Anubus is assisting the resurrection of the dead dude or it is burial of the dead dude.
e) it has nothing to do with sacrifice.

any objections?
Do I understand this segment correctly?
back to you

“Do I understand correctly that they believe that this is the one that Joseph Smith had?”

yes, it is a perfect match.

“Do I understand correctly that they believe or KNOW that this papuri that they found shows
a) God Anubus who is standing
b) dead dude who is on the bier
c) God Anubus is assisting the resurrection of the dead dude or it is burial of the dead dude.
e) it has nothing to do with sacrifice.”

You did watch the video yes? Joseph posited that the person “fastened” down was Abraham, and that an idolatrous priest was attempting to sacrifice him (dude with a knife). Because Joseph had no knowledge of Egyptian death rituals, and only a portion of papyri to peruse, misunderstood the depiction and he falsely completed the picture, putting a man’s head on the standing figure and holding a knife. Then created a story to go along with what he thought was being depicted. That is not how it really was. In depictions of death rituals of ancient Egyptians, it was commonly depicted with the god Anubis assisting with the resurrection of a deceased Egyptian. He would have had the head of a jackal, not a human head as drawn by Joseph when he attempted to recreate what was missing in the scrap of papyri he had bought.

This guy:

[Image: 5aqsyq.jpg]

Not like this:

[Image: 1ort54.png]

[Image: 2ynf5o6.png]

Original:

[Image: 2hf135l.png]

remnant bought by JS:

[Image: r0qjas.gif]

“any objections?”

this amuses me, continue on

“Do I understand this segment correctly?”

what you claim to understand has yet to be fathomed

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Girl_nails

Drinking Beverage

Funny thing is I am writing a 10 page research paper on the structure of the Department of Homeland Security, posting discussion posits and responses on two college class websites on different tabs, while eviscerating this drivel at the same time, and watching tv...oh the joy of multi-tasking....google away Alla, best of luck to you.....lol

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 01:37 PM by Alla.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
OK . You confirm that I understand correctly. It is good. I like to be correct.
Now I want to get to my questions.
Let's look at the picture on which God Anubus assisting the resurrection( first photo you posted).
The same picture was shown when they talked about French dude.
There was one more - God Anubus assisting dead naked guy. Anubus seems is reaching to the penis of the dead.
French dude compared it with JS's pictures. I looked at these two pictures of French dude.
Then I looked at the picture that was recovered and which according to the Egyptologists is the one JS used and that it is burial scene or assisting in the resurrection of the dead guy.
This recovered picture has missing parts - no head of Anubus and some other details.
Ritner said that we KNOW what kind of head should be and that knife has no reason to be there.
Let's say I TRUST his expertise. I can't see what is missing on the picture and I am not Egyptologist. But I KNOW what I see.

I look at the picture that was recovered. If person on the bier is dead person why are his both arms above his face? This is not what I see on the photos of the French dude. Arms are at his side. He is naked. Person on the bier of the recovered photo is dressed and accessorized.
Then I looked at the legs of dead dudes on both pictures. If I look at French guy photos legs of the dead are on the bier and standing person either behind the bier or next to bier. If I look at the recovered photo standing person is between bier and the legs of the dead person.
How many more Egyptian ancient photos have dead dudes who have both arms above the face and legs are in the air? and God Anubus is between the bier and legs of the dead?
How about the crocodile in the water near the bier? doesn't it have sacrificial connection? Just asking.
back to you.

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04-08-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 01:10 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Girl_nails

Drinking Beverage

Funny thing is I am writing a 10 page research paper on the structure of the Department of Homeland Security, posting discussion posits and responses on two college class websites on different tabs, while eviscerating this drivel at the same time, and watching tv...oh the joy of multi-tasking....google away Alla, best of luck to you.....lol
SmileThumbsup

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04-08-2015, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 01:55 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 01:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  OK . You confirm that I understand correctly. It is good. I like to be correct.
Now I want to get to my questions.
Let's look at the picture on which God Anubus assisting the resurrection( first photo you posted).
The same picture was shown when they talked about French dude.
There was one more - God Anubus assisting dead naked guy. Anubus seems is reaching to the penis of the dead.
French dude compared it with JS's pictures. I looked at these two pictures of French dude.
Then I looked at the picture that was recovered and which according to the Egyptologists is the one JS used and that it is burial scene or assisting in the resurrection of the dead guy.
This recovered picture has missing parts - no head of Anubus and some other details.
Ritner said that we KNOW what kind of head should be and that knife has no reason to be there.
Let's say I TRUST his expertise. I can't see what is missing on the picture and I am not Egyptologist. But I KNOW what I see.

I look at the picture that was recovered. If person on the bier is dead person why are his both arms above his face? This is not what I see on the photos of the French dude. Arms are at his side. He is naked. Person on the bier of the recovered photo is dressed and accessorized.
Then I looked at the legs of dead dudes on both pictures. If I look at French guy photos legs of the dead are on the bier and standing person either behind the bier or next to bier. If I look at the recovered photo standing person is between bier and the legs of the dead person.
How many more Egyptian ancient photos have dead dudes who have both arms above the face and legs are in the air? and God Anubus is in between the bier and legs of the dead?
How about the crocodile in the water near the bier? doesn't it have sacrificial connection? Just asking.
back to you.

Gasp

Are you being serious or you just playing dumb with me?

I made some pic additions to that post, look at them.

In Egyptian culture, they typically depict Anubis assisting the dead to the next realm. Look closely, and um no...he isnt reaching for his penis Blink note the picture below again...

[Image: 2hf135l.png]

his (Anubis) hand is up, see the thumb? releasing the bird of life.....then the dead guy, has one arm down, and his right hand up meeting the bird of life....as in accepting the gift. He doesnt have "both hands up" that top hand that Joseph drew is actually the wing of the bird....

[Image: 1ort54.png]

He isnt "between his legs" he is standing to the right of the body, see how both the legs are in the forefront of the picture, but yes, it is artistically inaccurate when it shows the body of Anubis standing between the bier and the legs, that would be a bit hard to do, but these were not artists, just priests drawing as best they could...not like they were trained by Michealangelo, Joseph on the other hand decided to draw the legs on the opposite side of the table, which is probably more realistic, but again, him taking artistic licence in his intentional misinterpretation of the drawing to support the story he wanted to weave. .... Facepalm

EDIT: unless it is supposed to show that the body is twisting its legs to its left in preparation of rising from the table as it comes to life...... that at least makes sense Consider

Regardless, JS drew what he wanted to see, then crafted this BS story about how the hieroglyphics told this long winded story about Abraham...all a figment of his imagination.....FICTION

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Let me know when we can start to talk about DNA.
Chase Bechased Girl_nails Popcorn Drinking Beverage

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04-08-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
Wow even I can see right through alla and her bs. Dang no one can be this deluted right?

Please alla tell me you aren't this blinded?
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04-08-2015, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 02:45 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Discussion on the invalidity of Mormonism
(04-08-2015 01:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let me know when we can start to talk about DNA.
Chase Bechased Girl_nails Popcorn Drinking Beverage

Ah, so you concede that:

1) JS was a criminal as evidenced by his long ass rap sheet across multiple states and multiple years.

2) JS claimed and pretended he could read the ancient Egyptian, made up an outlandish story, and posited it as divine in nature, "Book of Abraham". Disproven to great length by Egyptian experts.

3) JS provided not one, but at least three different written accounts of his "First Vision" which had marked differences in their story. Furthermore he provided interviews where he told even different versions of this "divine message".

Sure, moving right along, you wish to go on to DNA now? Rolleyes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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