Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
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10-01-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
(10-01-2014 09:15 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  Yea i noticed that after i posted the question.
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10-01-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
(09-01-2014 11:34 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation… If a secular nation…what happened?

SOMEBODY please post sources every now and then. I really want to learn while researching this stuff

Thanks again, dudes!!

There is no debate. I do not think the founders were stupid in omitting the words "Jesus" or "Christianity", or in their deliberate wording in the anti trust law of the Amendment which bans social pecking orders and protects dissent.

Why put "no religious test" in the oath of office if your intent was to say "Christians come first with guests welcome, as long as they accept guest status".

And why did an entire congress without dissent sign the Barbary Treaty in which article 11 states "As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" and signed by founder John Adams June 10th 1797.

Freedom of religion never meant to the founders an ability to set up religious pecking orders. If that were the case we would not have Jews and Muslims and even an atheist now serving in our congress.

"So Help me God" is NOT written in the oath of office and swearing on a bible IS NOT mandatory.

And even in Jefferson's private letters he said that atheists could have morals to and that morality comes somewhere else than from a god.

"whence arises the morality of the atheist? It is idol to say, as some do, that no such thing exists" Thomas Jefferson.

Not to mention he valued questioning, even that of religion and gods, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson.

It would have been easy as smart and educated as the founders were, if they intended on Christian favoritism via government and religious pecking orders where Christians are always top dog, to put specific language making Christianity special to government law. Their omission of "Jesus" and "Christianity" by name from the Constitution was not a ban on religion, but an indictment of theocracy of all labels.

We have always been a secular government. However our majority over all has always struggled to understand that "secular" does not mean godless or evil. It is merely the opposite of "sect" which means "picking a favorite".

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10-01-2014, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2014 05:09 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
Yeah, as people have already said, there is no debate. Now as for what the exact details are on what it means to separate church and state, you could have some minor quibbles (or major quibbles if you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the term means, which seems to be the case for conservative right-wingers), but that the government is supposed to be operating on a secular constitution and that it was the intent of the founding fathers for the government to be secular is irrefutable. Anybody that states secularism creeped in because of "liberal activist judges" over the decades is bullshitting themselves.

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16-01-2014, 03:08 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
America's government was clearly designed to be secular in nature. However, the prevailing religious beliefs of the majority of the founding fathers was Deism (as was most prominent intellectuals during the Enlightenment period) and the language and words in our oldest laws reflect that.

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16-01-2014, 03:13 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
(10-01-2014 05:03 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Yeah, as people have already said, there is no debate. Now as for what the exact details are on what it means to separate church and state, you could have some minor quibbles (or major quibbles if you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the term means, which seems to be the case for conservative right-wingers), but that the government is supposed to be operating on a secular constitution and that it was the intent of the founding fathers for the government to be secular is irrefutable. Anybody that states secularism creeped in because of "liberal activist judges" over the decades is bullshitting themselves.

I think you are mistaken. Here is Jesusland™ there are many Christian fundamentalist who are also liberals. Many of those would also argue that America is and always has been a Christian nation. Both of the major political parties use Christianity and Jesus as a political tool. The so-called conservatives have just been more successful at it.

Last presidential election I got into a political argument with my gay democrat cousin who also happens to be the local church organist and pianist. Many facepalms were had.

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16-01-2014, 03:54 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
I dispute, Dark Light, that most of our founding father's were Deists, but Deism certainly contributed to the debates our founding fathers engaged in toward agreeing on separation of church and state.

Deism is an Aristotelian belief in a prime mover: creator of all things, set things in motion, may or may not be conscious, never interferes in creation, and maybe unable to do so.

Dark Light certainly has it right that our Constitution was framed by Enlightenment thinking. Also, the contributions of Rousseau and John Lock helped develop Enlightenment thinking on the natural nature of human beings and their needs in a governed society: think individuality, property, protection, and flourishing (persuit of happiness).

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16-01-2014, 04:42 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
(09-01-2014 11:34 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation… If a secular nation…what happened?

SOMEBODY please post sources every now and then. I really want to learn while researching this stuff

Thanks again, dudes!!

I dont see why people should constantly have to show how there is seperation between religion and state in your country, since enought evidence has already been shown.

It is time for the opposition to present their arguments.

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16-01-2014, 06:42 AM
Re: RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
(16-01-2014 04:42 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(09-01-2014 11:34 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation… If a secular nation…what happened?

SOMEBODY please post sources every now and then. I really want to learn while researching this stuff

Thanks again, dudes!!

I dont see why people should constantly have to show how there is seperation between religion and state in your country, since enought evidence has already been shown.

It is time for the opposition to present their arguments.

They have. It's some jerking around claims of saying what counts as the founding of the nation. I saw Santorum argue some claim that the constitution is only the blueprint but the foundation of religion was there before it, so that counts to them.

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16-01-2014, 06:52 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
There are actualy documents in Europe which are known to have been the inspiration for your constitution.

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16-01-2014, 07:49 AM
RE: Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation…
(09-01-2014 11:34 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Discussion on whether America was founded as a Secular or Christian nation… If a secular nation…what happened?

SOMEBODY please post sources every now and then. I really want to learn while researching this stuff

Thanks again, dudes!!

You have conflated the issues - your question is malformed.

It is the government which is secular.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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