Discussion with a Christian
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-10-2016, 07:10 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 01:30 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(13-10-2016 07:50 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  I've told my parents that I would talk to a Christian about my lack of belief as long as they understood their bible better than the average Christian. Pretty soon I will be meeting with a guy who used to be my parent's Pastor. He is intelligent and will prob be on a mission to convert me. He's not on a William Lane Craig level, but he's up there in terms of his bible knowledge so our discussion should be interesting.

I plan on approaching with, " What do you believe and why?. Why should I believe it?" Finally, I have some good arguments too incase they're needed. I will of course be open minded, but I don't want to get tricked either. Any advice?

Chances are he will have his own interpretation of the Bible, you should learn all you can about his specific denomination and figure out why it's different than all the others and ask him why the Bible should be interpreted the way he thinks it should be. Why is it more correct and how does he know the Bible should be taken as the word of God or as fact.

Make sure you appeal to his intellect and not his emotions, when he says he feels something is true in his heart or similar ask him why that feeling is more correct than your feelings. That's all I got, as long as you have done your research you should do well, good luck.

Heart Do you think, what a Pastor has finished an University? The Pastor, who can win, could have finished also the Physical Department, and the Department of Psychology.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2016, 07:19 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 06:36 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(14-10-2016 06:30 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I don't know if you have been around long enough to have read any of the post by theBorg but the safest thing you can do is ignore him. He is an idiot and a troll.
A good example is when you ask for advice on talking to a preacher as an atheist the morons advice is " convince him to be a different Christian"

To the surprise of no one.

You do not quite understand. Any change in person's worldview is risky. Why? Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion. The final destination depends on the good will of the asker. Please, do not guide him into atheism. That is sin.

(14-10-2016 06:36 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion.

What the crap are you even talking about? "Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion." Jesus fucking christ! What a bunch of idle brained, delusional nonsense.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes dancefortwo's post
14-10-2016, 08:39 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 07:19 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(14-10-2016 06:36 AM)theBorg Wrote:  You do not quite understand. Any change in person's worldview is risky. Why? Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion. The final destination depends on the good will of the asker. Please, do not guide him into atheism. That is sin.

(14-10-2016 06:36 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion.

What the crap are you even talking about? "Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion." Jesus fucking christ! What a bunch of idle brained, delusional nonsense.

It's his translation software. The bad translations it produces are responsible for at least 20% of his gibberish.

.... at least 15% of his gibberish.

.... 13%. I'm going with a hard 13% here.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Reltzik's post
14-10-2016, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2016 03:18 PM by theBorg.)
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 07:19 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(14-10-2016 06:36 AM)theBorg Wrote:  You do not quite understand. Any change in person's worldview is risky. Why? Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion. The final destination depends on the good will of the asker. Please, do not guide him into atheism. That is sin.

(14-10-2016 06:36 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion.

What the crap are you even talking about? "Because the basic layers of the person do go in motion." Jesus **** christ! What a bunch of idle brained, delusional nonsense.

It is not the nonsense. If the "kid" would take this advise, the Pastor would cry in tears. Otherwise the meeting will not go "deep enough".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-10-2016, 09:34 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 06:15 AM)theBorg Wrote:  But be very polite. Let the human start his journey to the Verity, to the True Church.

The Verity...

Sounds almost... Veridican.

It may be a stretch, but if Gordo were to reinvent himself here or perhaps have a Facepalm follower... I know it's a stretch but there are many misguided fools in the world...

Just thinking out loud....or whatever the equivalent of that is on the internet...

Carry on.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like evenheathen's post
15-10-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 01:45 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(14-10-2016 09:54 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  A lot of advice to give. You're of course free to ignore it or not as you choose.

First, to quickly get it out of the way, bear in mind that Borgy is very much a Christian of the "attempt to persuade people to Christ" variety. (And failing miserably.) His advice is not an attempt to help you. It's an attempt to get his religion's hooks back into you. (Though he might think that counts as helping you.) We have some Christians here who will actually help you in YOUR goals. Borg is not one of them.

Moving on...

My top piece of advice is going into both this conversation, and subsequent conversations with your family, with a clear set of your goals... and those goals should be minimal. Your purpose, in these conversations, should be to create a bit of space and freedom for yourself, to come away with what you need to survive as a human being and as a free thinker. Stick to those minimal goals for at least six months. Don't get overambitious and try to branch out into deconverting anyone, or you run the risk of losing on those basics.

What do you need to survive as a human being? Shelter, food, clothing, medical care, etc, which in today's society mostly boils down to money. But the ability to get a good job also depends on college nowadays (or at least a trade school) and that's something worth defending too. How dependent are you on your parents? Are they paying for your college? Are you living in their home and eating at their table? Do you already have your own job? If they cut you off and kicked you out on the street today -- not necessarily likely, but it does happen -- how would you survive? Would it be easy or would it be a challenge?

What do you need to survive as a free thinker? You need the ability to speak your mind, the ability to have conversations with people on these topics without fear of retribution, the ability to explore subjects through books and contact with people without having these things restricted, and a bit of space to be alone with your thoughts and process without being subject to constant propaganda from a single side.

What's the best, easiest, and most likely way of achieving these things? I'd say that it's to establish a degree of respect for what you're doing, and that requires establishing what it is you're doing as something respectable. They might disagree with your beliefs (or absence thereof), they might think you're in dangerous territory spiritually, but at least they can admire your virtues. If you can get that far, that should be enough to maintain many of your friendships and your family relationships, as well as demand your intellectual freedom.

So, you're on a search for truth. That's something that demands respect in its own right. You're shining a very careful, very investigative light on things and trying to evaluate them in a way that most people don't. No, you don't need me to tell you this, but you need to tell EVERYONE this... and show it in everything you do. Force every conversation about religion back to this, your agenda, and reframe it in the light of evaluating its truth. If it comes to arguments about morality, clad yourself in the armor of honesty and integrity and cast off anything approaching a lie or even apathy towards the truth. Claim that high ground for yourself... but only in defense. If they suggest you pretend to get along with people, ask how living a lie is honest.... but don't accuse them of dishonesty. If they employ one of the spurious "believe it's true because you would want it to be true" types of arguments, point out that they don't address the question of whether it's true or not and thus doesn't satisfy your quest... but don't accuse them of not caring whether it's true. Putting them down won't give you your space. It will just get them to counterattack in ways you might not be equipped to defend against.

This is also your best defense against the common accusations that you're just rebelling, or just going through a phase. Is seeking the truth a bad phase to go through? Isn't that a good thing to do, regardless of whether it counts as rebellion? Keep the focus on WHAT you're doing, and its merits, rather than why you're doing it. Act as if the quest for truth is its own justification, reason enough in itself for itself.

You asked for advice specifically about this conversation with your pastor, and that's a good time to start establishing this. Your goal shouldn't be to make a good argument for atheism or against the Bible, not with your words. Your goal should be simply establishing that you're doing what you're doing for good reasons... and you should do that through your actions, as well as explicit words.

So, bring a notebook. Take careful notes. Ask the pastor to slow down and carefully repeat things so you can get them down accurately. GET a dedicated notebook just for this task. Pay attention to what's said, and when he makes a point, good or bad, tell him to give you a minute or two to process it. Think it through carefully before replying. You might have an easy, off-the-cuff answer ready, but still take a minute to think it through. Maybe you'll catch one of your own errors, but either way you'll be signalling that you're taking this SERIOUSLY. If after a minute or two you haven't got an answer, or are doubtful about the answer, or are still not sure you understand the point, either ask a clarifying question to keep that thread of the conversation going, or say that you're making a note to think on that, a lot, over the next few days or weeks. (And do so.)

(This is a good tactic for when others in your circle want to push conversations about faith on you. If they throw a one-off barb your way, respond with, "hold on, let me get my notebook" and turn it into a much bigger, much more serious conversation than they were prepared for. If you're in a time and place where that's not convenient, make a strong effort to schedule time for an in-depth conversation with them. Respond to all of these things in a manner that shows you take it very seriously, and which invites and challenges them to take it as seriously as you do.)

Try to keep the focus on HOW things are known, and whether these methods of knowing things are reliable paths to truth. This is called epistemology. It is both Christianity's greatest weakness, and also your greatest strength in establishing yourself as a truth-seeker.

Questions are your biggest friend here. The help establish you as someone who's seeking truth (rather than convinced that you've already found it). But more than that, questions are less confrontational than hard declarations. They invite conversation rather than conflict and burrow down into issues better. They put the burden on other people to answer your question than on yourself to back up a point... and when you're on the defensive, that's a good thing. If you're looking for book recommendations, I'd point you towards anything related to Socrates just for that questioning technique alone.

One example I'll give of this technique with a pastor is... how do we know the Bible is true? Why would we suspect it is? For example, let's look at Revelations. The Bible was assembled by the Council of Nicea. They brought together many existing books and gospels, including some and rejecting others. Why did they include Revelations? John the Revelator admits straight out that the whole thing was a dream. How did the Council fact-check it? How did they determine whether it was an actual vision, versus just a normal dream, or the result of having the wrong mushrooms for dinner, or for that matter an outright fabrication? For that matter how did JOHN determine it was a vision rather than just a dream? All of this reflects on the standards of truth by those who assembled the Bible, which in turn reflects on the reliability of the Bible itself. Did they just have faith in it? Why did they have faith in that book, but not the books they rejected? I'm not saying to ask this line of questions... but I'm providing it as an example of the sort of questions to ask.

Anyhow, that's my advice. In a nutshell...

tl;dr: Establish that what's going on with you is that you're engaged in truth-seeking, and try to establish some respect for that. Do not attack or get aggressive. Focus on Socratic questions rather than arguments, take things seriously, and take lots and lots of notes. Follow up on those notes.

Best answer I've gotten on this site so far! Thanks for the advice I will get a notebook and take this approach from here on out.

Hope it works for you. Best of luck!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(14-10-2016 09:34 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  ................
Carry on.

Thank you, the potential friend. I was in discomfort, thinking about my contribution to this thread. However the message is simple: many humans are not quite the faithful theists. So, if a person knows the True God and His True Church (the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church), then he can use it for good, to help even a pastor to repent the sin. But some can use the knowledge for evil, like the invisible evil spirits are doing. Please, do not be on the evil side.

See, how the unfaithful-s are feeling about the True God's love:


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(15-10-2016 03:28 PM)theBorg Wrote:  
(14-10-2016 09:34 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  ................
Carry on.

Thank you, the potential friend. I was in discomfort, thinking about my contribution to this thread. However the message is simple: many humans are not quite the faithful theists. So, if a person knows the True God and His True Church (the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church), then he can use it for good, to help even a pastor to repent the sin. But some can use the knowledge for evil, like the invisible evil spirits are doing. Please, do not be on the evil side.

[Image: blah+blah+blah.gif]

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like WhiskeyDebates's post
15-10-2016, 10:30 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(15-10-2016 08:07 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(15-10-2016 03:28 PM)theBorg Wrote:  Thank you, the potential friend. I was in discomfort, thinking about my contribution to this thread. However the message is simple: many humans are not quite the faithful theists. So, if a person knows the True God and His True Church (the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church), then he can use it for good, to help even a pastor to repent the sin. But some can use the knowledge for evil, like the invisible evil spirits are doing. Please, do not be on the evil side.

[Image: blah+blah+blah.gif]

It is not a blah-blah. See, my friends: many theist do not know, what the Jesus is the Messiah-Godman. But they are forcing themselves to follow this assumption of their. Therefore, they are called not the atheists, but the theists.
Do you need the link to debate, in which the Alister McGrath admits to R.Dawkins, what Alister does not know the True God's existence:
https://youtu.be/3LGm0iWPC80

Conclusion: the atheists do not know, what there is "no" True God. The atheists do not know, what Jesus from Nazareth is the Messiah-Godman. Their heart is closed, but their mind is still open to this positive possibility.

Therefore, the atheists can forget the destructive call of their heart, and follow the possibility, which is still open in the mind. The possibility, what the Jesus Christ is the Messiah-Godman. Therefore, the atheists can study the religions, to find the True one, and it is not hard. Having this knowledge, they can help even the pastor to confess his sins. It is awful: the sins of pastor are not even confessed!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-10-2016, 10:40 PM
RE: Discussion with a Christian
(15-10-2016 10:30 PM)theBorg Wrote:  ...it is not hard...

I'm sorry to hear that. Here ya go.

[Image: viagra-sildenafil.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Dark Wanderer's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: