Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
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25-10-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(25-10-2015 02:59 PM)theophilus Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 09:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I can probably help you address Isaiah 53 from a Jewish perspective. I'll give you the punchline: It's not about Jesus.

Of course, from a Jewish perspective it isn't about Jesus. If it was they would have to acknowledge that he is the Messiah. But not all Jews share this opinion. Here is another Jewish perspective:

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/iss...6/isaiah53

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
(Isaiah 53:4-6 ESV)


If this isn't about Jesus, who is it about?

Facepalm
Did you even read the post that I linked? I can't have a discussion with you unless you're willing to read what I have to say. Given that you think that Jews recognize Jews for Jesus as a Jewish movement, you should probably grab a cup of coffee and read the entire thread.
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25-10-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
The problem with prophecy????

Where's your control group????

......

Anyone who thinks they can "prove" prophecy is also likely to be able to "prove" that chocolate is better than sex................

.....

In other words --- they just like it, so it MUST be true, huh????

Funny how that works.....................

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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25-10-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(25-10-2015 02:59 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Of course, from a Jewish perspective it isn't about Jesus. If it was they would have to acknowledge that he is the Messiah. But not all Jews share this opinion. Here is another Jewish perspective:

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/iss...6/isaiah53

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
(Isaiah 53:4-6 ESV)


If this isn't about Jesus, who is it about?

There is no question that the writers of the New Testament were attempting to make the Jesus-Messiah story fit the story of the chosen one in Isaiah, as described in that part of the book of Isaiah; they simply did a bad job at some of the links, as in the example of the use of "a virgin shall conceive".

There are also passages that make it fairly clear that the Messiah spoken of is a physical-style warrior who could lead Israel in battle and get revenge on the enemies of Israel-- most of Isaiah is taken up with this concept, overall, of Israel being "low" and raised to earthly power and respect by the coming Messiah.

Isaiah 59:15b-20

Isaiah Wrote:Now the Lord saw,
And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice.
16 And He saw that there was no man,
And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His righteousness upheld Him.
17 He put on righteousness like a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing
And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.
18 According to their deeds, so He will repay,
Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies;
To the coastlands He will make recompense.
19 So they will fear the name of the Lord from the west
And His glory from the rising of the sun,
For He will come like a rushing stream
Which the wind of the Lord drives.
20 “A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the Lord
.

It is fairly clear that the Jesus Myth-Makers took from this Messiah concept and crafted it into their version, which Christians still use to this day: "Oh, no, it doesn't really refer to an earthly kingdom, but a Kingdom of Righteousness... Paul's evangelical influence, by and large, on the early faith, though I have little doubt that the idea sprang from early Disciples, trying to figure out why they guy they thought was the Messiah turned out to have been slain by the Romans before getting revenge on their oppressors... thus the "returning soon, in Glory" resurrection story, as well.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-10-2015, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2015 08:12 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
Read and learn, Oh Theophilus. The "Suffering Servant" was a theme in the writers of Isaiah. The Suffering Servant was the people of Israel. You REALLY need to learn to read those texts without your indoctrinated bias.
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_...rvant.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-10-2015, 06:18 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
Oh, and BTW, did you know Jebus had an older brother ?

Yes

Rolleyes

Jeremiah 31:7-9
7 This is what the Lord says:
“Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
‘Lord, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.’
8
See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9
They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.


Nobody tells me nuthin'. I go ta chuch, and what do I get ? Some other son.
Facepalm

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30-10-2015, 12:18 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(24-10-2015 09:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Prior to chapter 53, Isaiah directly identifies at least ten times who the servant is that he’s writing about.
The servant in those verses is man Jacob whom God gave another name "Israel" and NOT house of Israel in those verses as you say or whoever says.
But let's say you(and they) are correct and Isaiah speaks about house of Israel and not about Christ(Messiah).
Then I have some questions. I hope you have answers.

what does it mean that house of Israel "borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows"?
who are those people whose "sorrows and grief" house of Israel borne and carried?
what are the examples how house of Israel did it?

what does it mean "to lay on house of Israel the iniquity of all us? who are "us"? how does house of Israel lay iniquity of all us? please, examples.
what does it mean that house of Israel "made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death BECAUSE he has done no violence, neither was ANY DECEIT in his mouth"?

Wait a minute! House of Israel has done NO violence?!!! House of Israel did NOT have DECEIT in his mouth?
Then why did God chase house of Israel many, many times?

Another question: "verse 10: he(meaning house of Israel according to you and whoever) made HIS SOUL an offering for sin"?
please examples: how did house of Israel offer his SOUL for sin?
what does it mean "to offer SOUL for sin"?

Thank you in advance for all your answers.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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30-10-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
Here are a few of my musings on the OT:

Dismantlement of the OT mythical global flood fairy tale:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674871

Evisceration of the OT exodus myth:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid824310

and a little about the moses fabrication:

The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story are disputed among archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.

When you analyze the Pentateuch, you will find doublets and triplets. These are pairs of stories which occur in two separate locations in the text. The doublets generally do not agree fully; there are usually minor differences between the stories. R.E. Friedman, in his 1997 book "Who Wrote the Bible?" lists a number of them:

Two creation stories in Genesis.
Two descriptions of the Abrahamic covenant.
Two stories of the naming of Isaac.
Two instances where Abraham deceived a king by introducing his wife Sarah as his sister.
Two stories of Jacob traveling to Mesopotamia
Two stories of a revelation at Beth-el to Jacob.
Two accounts of God changing Jacob's name to Israel
Two instances where Moses extracted water from two different rocks at two different locations called Meribah.

These doublets appeared to contradict each other. In most cases, one referred to God as Yahweh while the other used the term Elohim.

Theologians reason that a much more logical explanation is that the books were written by multiple authors who lived long after the events described. That would have allowed the oral tradition to be passed from generation to generation in different areas of the land so that they had a chance to deviate from each other before being written down.

Both Judaism and Christianity assumed that the Pentateuch -- the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) were written by Moses, as the Bible itself states. However, in recent centuries, alternative authorship has been proposed. The documentary hypothesis is now accepted by essentially all mainline and liberal theologians.

- 11th Century CE: Isaac ibn Yashush suggested that the list of the Edomite kings in Genesis 36 was added by an unknown person after Moses died. For this assertion, he became known as "Isaac the Blunderer." 1

- 15th Century: Bishop Tostatus suggested that certain passages were written by one of the prophets, not by Moses.

- 16th Century: Andreas van Maes suggested that an editor added additional material to some of Moses' writings.

- 17th Century: Thomas Hobbes prepared a collection of passages that seemed to negate Moses' authorship.

- 18th Century: Three investigators (Witter, Astruc and Eichhorn) independently concluded that doublets in the Torah were written by two different authors. A doublet is a story that is described twice.

- 19th Century: Scholars noticed that there were a few triplets in the Torah. This indicated that a third author was involved. Then, they determined that the book of Deuteronomy was written in a different language style from the remaining 4 books in the Pentateuch. Finally, by the end of the 19th Century, liberal scholars reached a consensus that 4 authors and one redactor (editor) had been actively involved in the writing of the Pentateuch.

- 20th Century: Academics have continued to refine the Documentary Hypothesis by identifying which verses (and parts of verses) were authored by the various writers. They have also attempted to uncover the names of the authors. In 1943, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in which he urged academics to study the sources of Biblical texts. Recent archaeological discoveries and new linguistic analysis tools have facilitated the research into the hypothesis.

Belief in the documentary hypothesis was triggered by a number of factors, such as:

- Anachronisms, like the list of the Edomite kings;

- Duplicate and triplicate passages

- Various passages portrayed God in different ways;

- The flood story appears to involve the meshing of two separate stories;

- The belief, centuries ago, by archaeologists and linguists that writing among the ancient Hebrews only developed after the events portrayed in the Pentateuch. Thus, Moses would have been incapable of writing the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

These factors led theologians to the conclusion that the Pentateuch is a hybrid document which was written well after Moses' death, and much later than the events portrayed. The authors and redactors are unknown, and are commonly referred to as authors J, E, P and D.

That will give you a few things to mull over and use Smile

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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30-10-2015, 04:30 PM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2015 04:34 PM by Alla.)
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(25-10-2015 05:32 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  There are also passages that make it fairly clear that the Messiah spoken of is a physical-style warrior who could lead Israel in battle and get revenge on the enemies of Israel-- most of Isaiah is taken up with this concept, overall, of Israel being "low" and raised to earthly power and respect by the coming Messiah.

Isaiah 59:

17 He put on righteousness like a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing
And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.


Hmm, interesting.
Can you draw me a picture of physical-style warrior who has righteousness as his breastplate and salvation as his helmet.
Thank you in advance if you show me a picture of this kind of physical-style warrior.

English is my second language.
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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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30-10-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
Too bad the "messiah" failed to live up to the fairy tale:


The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)” Laughat

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.

Rolleyes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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30-10-2015, 04:59 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
Aliza Wrote:I’m not aware of anyone making the claim that Jesus wasn’t born Jewish. According to the descriptions provided in the New Testament, though, he wasn’t from the House of David. This fact in and of itself disqualifies Jesus as being a messianic contender.
according to what descriptions specifically Jesus was not from the house of David?

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