Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
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01-11-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
Thank you for this information.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Christians often forget that these texts were written by Jews, and for Jews.
But not LDS Christians. We know that those books are from Jews and for Jews and for other tribes of house of Israel. We(12 tribes) are one nation, we are covenant people of God of Abraham, Isaak, and Jacob. It is even written in the Book of Mormon. So, I remember.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The key to understanding them is to first understand the mindset of the Jewish people.
It is helpful but it is not the key number one.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The second key to understanding them is to learn what we have written in the Talmud, because this represents the unbroken chain of communication that extends directly back to Isaiah himself.
This key is not important at all. It(Talmud) is not written by the prophets of God of Israel. It is not from God. It is from men who have no authority from God to write Scriptures.

God's covenant people had and have living prophets among them. When there are no living prophets among God's covenant people there are learned men and their own philosophies. House of Israel is in apostasy when there are no living prophets. If God does not send living prophets to His covenant people as He always did, there is something wrong with these people. They do not deserve or they are not ready for living prophets. Why? Because they reject living prophets. They stone them to death or they crucify them.

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01-11-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(01-11-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  Thank you for this information.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Christians often forget that these texts were written by Jews, and for Jews.
But not LDS Christians. We know that those books are from Jews and for Jews and for other tribes of house of Israel. We(12 tribes) are one nation, we are covenant people of God of Abraham, Isaak, and Jacob. It is even written in the Book of Mormon. So, I remember.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The key to understanding them is to first understand the mindset of the Jewish people.
It is helpful but it is not the key number one.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The second key to understanding them is to learn what we have written in the Talmud, because this represents the unbroken chain of communication that extends directly back to Isaiah himself.
This key is not important at all. It(Talmud) is not written by the prophets of God of Israel. It is not from God. It is from men who have no authority from God to write Scriptures.

God's covenant people had and have living prophets among them. When there are no living prophets among God's covenant people there are learned men and their own philosophies. House of Israel is in apostasy when there are no living prophets. If God does not send living prophets to His covenant people as He always did, there is something wrong with these people. They do not deserve or they are not ready for living prophets. Why? Because they reject living prophets. They stone them to death or they crucify them.

Alla, if you already know everything, then why did you ask me questions about Isaiah 53?
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01-11-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(01-11-2015 06:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  Thank you for this information.
But not LDS Christians. We know that those books are from Jews and for Jews and for other tribes of house of Israel. We(12 tribes) are one nation, we are covenant people of God of Abraham, Isaak, and Jacob. It is even written in the Book of Mormon. So, I remember.
It is helpful but it is not the key number one.
This key is not important at all. It(Talmud) is not written by the prophets of God of Israel. It is not from God. It is from men who have no authority from God to write Scriptures.

God's covenant people had and have living prophets among them. When there are no living prophets among God's covenant people there are learned men and their own philosophies. House of Israel is in apostasy when there are no living prophets. If God does not send living prophets to His covenant people as He always did, there is something wrong with these people. They do not deserve or they are not ready for living prophets. Why? Because they reject living prophets. They stone them to death or they crucify them.

Alla, if you already know everything, then why did you ask me questions about Isaiah 53?
I don't know everything. Some things that you told me I didn't know and it was interesting to read. But I do know something. I shared with you what I know.
Please, tell me more. You seem like a very knowledgeable and interesting person.

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01-11-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(01-11-2015 05:08 PM)theophilus Wrote:  They weren't of the same person. Matthew gives Joseph's genealogy; Luke gives Mary's. Matthew was writing to Jews; they would want to know whether Jesus was the rightful heir to the throne. Luke was written to Gentiles; they cared nothing about whether Jesus was king of the Jews but would have been interested in his biological relatives.

Complete nonsense. The NUMBER of generations are not even remotely similar.
What ? In one set they ALL live twice as long ? How pathetic.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-11-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(01-11-2015 05:08 PM)theophilus Wrote:  
(31-10-2015 02:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  Matthew's line goes from David's son Solomon, while Luke's goes from David's son Nathan. The two genealogies could not have been the same person.

They weren't of the same person. Matthew gives Joseph's genealogy; Luke gives Mary's.

Bullshit. You exhibit twisted thinking at its finest.

Luke 23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, ...

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01-11-2015, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2015 12:35 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 09:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Prior to chapter 53, Isaiah directly identifies at least ten times who the servant is that he’s writing about.
The servant in those verses is man Jacob whom God gave another name "Israel" and NOT house of Israel in those verses as you say or whoever says.
But let's say you(and they) are correct and Isaiah speaks about house of Israel and not about Christ(Messiah).

I know that you don’t accept my position that the suffering servant described in Isaiah 53 is Israel (ie: the Jewish people), but I really feel that it needs to be demonstrated to get the point across. Even if we do not agree on this, there may be someone reading my post who would like to hear my explanation. I want them to know exactly who the Jewish people believe the servant is, and why they believe it.

You and I already agree that the servant is called Israel or Jacob in Isaiah's servant songs. I would like to demonstrate that the Jewish people have been referred to as a singlar body in the past, and that the servant in Isaiah’s servant songs is referring to a group of people known as Israel or Jacob.

In the spoiler below, I have provided the verses from within Isaiah's Servant Songs which identify Israel or Jacob as being the servant. -Isaiah 53 is a part of those Servant Songs.

41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 41:9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you

43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be. (speaking of Israel in context) Note: This line is referring to the servant in the plural. The servant is a group of people.

44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.

45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."

49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
--------------------------------------------

If what I’m suggesting has any credibility, then I should be able to demonstrate that the entire body of the Jewish people are frequently referred to as a singular body called “Israel”, “Jacob”, and at times, “Jeshurun.”

I would first like to draw your attention to this one verse from Isaiah’s servant songs where the mystery servant is referred to in the plural:

Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be. (speaking of Israel in context) [I wonder if Jesus was formed in the womb as the human expression of G-d.]

So we see right here, that the servant is plural, but there are other instances throughout the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures where the entire body of the Jewish people are called by the singular. Let’s take a look at those:

I will be focusing primarily on the Torah for this study (with the exception of Isaiah and one quote from Psalms). As we see in the excerpts below, Isaiah and the rest of the scritpures use “Jacob” and “Israel” in the singular to refer to the Jewish people as a group. Read these verses in your own bible, in context, and see for yourself if they’re more likely referring to the Jewish people as a group or as a whole, the physical land of Israel, or Jacob/Israel, the individual who was Isaac and Rebekah’s son.

Deuteronomy 21:8 Provide atonement, O LORD, for Your people Israel, whom You have redeemed, and do not lay innocent blood to the charge of Your people Israel. And atonement shall be provided on their behalf for the blood.

The word, "people", as used above, shows that Israel is a group of people.

Deuteronomy 26:15 Look down from Your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless Your people Israel and the land which You have given us, just as You swore to our fathers, “a land flowing with milk and honey.”’

Deuteronomy 27:9 Then Moses and the priests, the Levites, spoke to all Israel, saying, “Take heed and listen, O Israel: This day you have become the people of the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 33:29 Happy are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the LORD, The shield of your help And the sword of your majesty! Your enemies shall submit to you, And you shall tread down their high places.”

Exodus 18:1 [ Jethro’s Advice ] And Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father-in-law, heard of all that God had done for Moses and for Israel His people—that the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt.

Psalm 24:6 This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah

Even Isaiah has a history of referring to the entire body of Jewish people as a single unit called Israel or Jacob.

Isaiah 9:8 [ The Punishment of Samaria ] The Lord sent a word against Jacob, And it has fallen on Israel.

Isaiah 10:21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God.

Isaiah 14:1 [ Mercy on Jacob ] For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.

Isaiah 17:4 “In that day it shall come to pass That the glory of Jacob will wane, And the fatness of his flesh grow lean.

How will the glory, and fatness of Jacob diminish if he’s been deceased for over a thousand years by this point in time?

Still not convinced? I have a few more examples in the spoiler below.

Numbers 1:1 [ The First Census of Israel ] Now the LORD spoke to Moses in the Wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying:

Does the census logically consist of one person who is deceased?

Numbers 10:29 Now Moses said to Hobab the son of Reuel the Midianite, Moses’ father-in-law, “We are setting out for the place of which the LORD said, ‘I will give it to you.’ Come with us, and we will treat you well; for the LORD has promised good things to Israel.

Numbers 10:36 And when it rested, he said: “Return, O LORD, To the many thousands of Israel.

Numbers 14:1 [ Israel Refuses to Enter Canaan ] So all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night.

Numbers 16:34 Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also!”

Numbers 20:21 Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his territory; so Israel turned away from him.

Numbers 21:2 So Israel made a vow to the LORD, and said, “If You will indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.”

Numbers 21:3 And the LORD listened to the voice of Israel and delivered up the Canaanites, and they utterly destroyed them and their cities. So the name of that place was called Hormah.

Numbers 21:21 [ King Sihon Defeated ] Then Israel sent messengers to Sihon king of the Amorites, saying,

Numbers 21:31 Thus Israel dwelt in the land of the Amorites.

Numbers 22:2 Now Balak the son of Zippor saw all that Israel had done to the Amorites.

Numbers 23:21 “He has not observed iniquity in Jacob, Nor has He seen wickedness in Israel. The LORD his God is with him, And the shout of a King is among them.

Deuteronomy 1:1 [ The Previous Command to Enter Canaan ] These arethe words which Moses spoke to all Israel on this side of the Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain opposite Suph, between Paran, Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Dizahab.

Deuteronomy 4:1 [ Moses Commands Obedience ] “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you.

Deuteronomy 5:1 [ The Ten Commandments Reviewed ] And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them.

Deuteronomy 6:3 Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it,that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’

Deuteronomy 21:21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Deuteronomy 29:2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land—

Deuteronomy 34:12 and by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel.

Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Maybe Jesus isn’t G-d’s firstborn son after all Tongue

This passage identifies the entire people who are trying to get out of Egypt as a singular person, who is G-d’s son.

Exodus 14:30 So the Lord saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore.

Exodus 14:31 Thus Israel saw the great work which the LORD had done in Egypt; so the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD and His servant Moses.

Exodus 15:22 [ Bitter Waters Made Sweet ] So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea; then they went out into the Wilderness of Shur. And they went three days in the wilderness and found no water.

Exodus 18:8 And Moses told his father-in-law all that the LORD had done to Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel’s sake, all the hardship that had come upon them on the way, and how the LORD had delivered them.

Exodus 18:9 Then Jethro rejoiced for all the good which the LORD had done for Israel, whom He had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians.

Exodus 18:25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Exodus 19:2 For they had departed from Rephidim, had come to the Wilderness of Sinai, and camped in the wilderness. So Israel camped there before the mountain.

Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

Exodus 32:4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!”

This is a good example because Israel is referred to in the singular, but we know very well that Israel is the entire group that fled Egypt.

Numbers 4:46 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses, Aaron, and the leaders of Israel numbered, by their families and by their fathers’ houses,

Numbers 19:13 Whoever touches the body of anyone who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD. That person shall be cut off from Israel. He shall be unclean, because the water of purification was not sprinkled on him; his uncleanness is still on him.

Numbers 21:17 Then Israel sang this song: “Spring up, O well! All of you sing to it—

Numbers 21:23 But Sihon would not allow Israel to pass through his territory. So Sihon gathered all his people together and went out against Israel in the wilderness, and he came to Jahaz and fought against Israel.

This is going on in Numbers. It can’t possibly be referring to just one guy who is long deceased.

Numbers 21:25 So Israel took all these cities, and Israel dwelt in all the cities of the Amorites, in Heshbon and in all its villages.

Numbers 23:23 “For there is no sorcery against Jacob, Nor any divination against Israel. It now must be said of [b]Jacob And of Israel, ‘Oh, what God has done!’

Numbers 24:5 “How lovely are your tents, O Jacob! Your dwellings, O Israel!

Numbers 25:1 [ Israel’s Harlotry in Moab ] Now Israel remained in Acacia Grove, and the people began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab.

Numbers 25:3 So Israel was joined to Baal of Peor, and the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel.

Numbers 25:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of the people and hang the offenders before the LORD, out in the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel.”

Numbers 32:13 So the LORD’s anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone.

Numbers 32:14 And look! You have risen in your fathers’ place, a brood of sinful men, to increase still more the fierce anger of the LORD against Israel.

Numbers 24:5 “How lovely are your tents, O Jacob! Your dwellings, O Israel!
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02-11-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean that house of Israel "borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows"?
who are those people whose "sorrows and grief" house of Israel borne and carried?
what are the examples how house of Israel did it?

Christians view this passage as saying that the servant will absorb the grief, and carry sorrows on their shoulders. Traditional Judaism teaches us that servant is hurt because their enemies took action against them. They bore the brunt of their enemies bad behavior.

What we’re being told here is that the speakers in this passage have terrible behavior and have harmed the servant in some way. The speakers in this passage view the servant has being smitten by G-d, and so there was justification to treat them so badly.

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains -he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

If the Jewish people are the servant, then I should be able to paint a picture of the Jewish experience in the past that lines up with our explanation of this verse.

Alla, I understand that you say that the Mormons have a different perspective, and that’s great, but the Christian movement as a whole have believed that because of Israel's sin, they lost their covenant with G-d. Christians have believed that they replaced the Jews as G-d's chosen people. They believed the Jews murdered Jesus and denied the “new truth”, and for this reason, they felt empowered to subjugate the Jews living in their land as though they were acting with G-d's divine authority to punish the wayward children.

(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean "to lay on house of Israel the iniquity of all us? who are "us"? how does house of Israel lay iniquity of all us? please, examples.

This passage doesn’t say that the iniquity of everyone has to fall on the servant, as though the servant exists to absorb other people’s sins. It just says that the servant prayed for everyone and his prayers were accepted. Christians are trying to turn the servant into their messiah, so they have to change a few things in order to bring this story in-line with their Jesus story. That’s scripture twisting.

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

In your version, the Lord takes the iniquity of the people who are speaking and places that iniquity on the shoulders of the servant.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

In my version, the servant prayed for the people who have sinned, and the Lord accepted the servant’s prayers.

These are not the same thing! How can the Authorized King James Version of the Bible have strayed so far from the original Hebrew so as to have changed the essence and meaning of the text?

The kings of the nations are introduced as the new first person perspective in 52:13. They take over as the first person in the narrative in 53:1.

The kings of the many nations are disgusted with the servant. In my experience with Christianity, the kings of many nations have been worshipping Jesus. Even the Muslims regard Jesus as being a respected prophet. -No one is disgusted with Jesus. Not now, and not as a trend through history. The Jewish people, on the other hand, have (by their very existence) disgusted many nations -even from before the time that Jesus was said to have lived. The Jewish people have a long, intricate history of dealing with baseless hatred expressed toward them.
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02-11-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
While it's clear to me that the writers of the NT only had a loose grasp on Judaism in the first century (let alone the historical aspects), it's amazing the degree to which they "bent" Isaiah to fit their messianic-prophecy-fulfillment narrative. It almost is crude enough, to me, to bring doubt on the notion that the disciples were actually Jews -- or, at the least, it strikes me as clear confirmation that the people writing the texts down weren't Jews, and knew only what they had learned from someone else, as adults, about the Hebrew language and customs they were trying to parrot. I stop short of calling it some kind of Roman conspiracy to undermine the Hebrew nationalism (especially given Paul's admission that his first job before converting was working for Rome to seek to stop the Christians, which strikes me as an excuse for why a Roman Agent would suddenly want to start talking about the subject with the apostles--what better way to insinuate yourself into their little society and subtly "alter" it?--but I definitely can see the point of those who claim it was one), following the death of a false messiah?

Regardless of that line of thought, it's amazing what a botch-job they did in crafting the Christian fable from Judaism... the "almah" versus "betulah" mistranslation, to make Mary into a prophesied virgin mother, is so stark that I'm amazed they don't (won't!) realize that it undercuts the entire basis of their faith!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-11-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(01-11-2015 08:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Complete nonsense. The NUMBER of generations are not even remotely similar.
What ? In one set they ALL live twice as long ? How pathetic.
Matthew's genealogy goes back to Abraham, Luke's goes back to Adam.

(02-11-2015 08:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  While it's clear to me that the writers of the NT only had a loose grasp on Judaism in the first century
All of the writers lived in the first century and all but one of them were Jews. We are the ones who don't understand first century Judaism and that is partly because our interpretation is influenced by what twentieth century Jews believe. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah but the Jews rejected him so they had to reinterpret the prophecies.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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02-11-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 10:21 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 08:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  While it's clear to me that the writers of the NT only had a loose grasp on Judaism in the first century
All of the writers lived in the first century and all but one of them were Jews. We are the ones who don't understand first century Judaism and that is partly because our interpretation is influenced by what twentieth century Jews believe. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah but the Jews rejected him so they had to reinterpret the prophecies.

Correction: According to the story, the writers of the NT were Jews.

Modern scholarship has easily demonstrated that the writers of the NT were not, in fact, the men they were claiming to be.

We have quite a lot of information about first century Judaism which the Greeks writing about the Jesus mythology (and trying to carve/craft it into the shape of a Prophesied Davidic Messiah narrative) did not, and it is clear from many mistakes they made in doing so that they were not as aware of first century Judaism as we are, today.

Just because I live in the 21st century and was born on the border of Mexico (Brownsville, TX) doesn't mean I understand Mexican culture as well as a native, or speak Spanish as fluently... if I wrote something, today, about Mexico, and later scholars compare my work to writings from native Mexicans about their own culture, they would be right to criticize me for my failures.

What baffles me is that you claim it is the Jews who do not understand their own culture, rather than the writers of the New Testament stories making (clear and obvious) mistakes, like mistranslating the word for virgin.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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