Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
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02-11-2015, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 06:52 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean that house of Israel "made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death BECAUSE he has done no violence, neither was ANY DECEIT in his mouth"?
Wait a minute! House of Israel has done NO violence?!!! House of Israel did NOT have DECEIT in his mouth?
Then why did God chase house of Israel many, many times?

Before I address the deceit or the violence, I would wager to guess that your bible has a mistranslation in it. I’d like to clear that up first:

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

[Image: datetaken]

To the wicked, the servant gives his grave. Ideally, humans like to bury their deceased loved ones in a burial plot that may be marked with some kind of identification. The Jews were denied this kind of grave and the wicked people who hurt them were afforded it.

To the wealthy, he is subjected to many kinds of death. (How many kinds of death did Jesus suffer?) The Jews were subjected to government-sanctioned attacks, murder and capital punishment just because they were Jewish. They were burned at the stake, they were drowned, their skin was peeled off their bodies, they were executed, and they were hanged.

Let’s take a look at what it means when it says that the Jews had to give up their (proper) graves (and their decent, respectable) burials to the wicked (who robbed them of this decency). I can really only give you pictorial evidence from the modern era, so here are a few gems from the wicked people who murdered Jews and tossed their bodies away like garbage.

[Image: a0b058109bb6b8c9d8bd6204966610dd.jpg]

Here are a few from Ukraine:

[Image: Nazi_Holocaust_by_bullets_-_Jewish_mass_...kraine.jpg]

Jews digging their own graves.
[Image: Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-A0706-0018-029%2C_...kution.jpg]
[Image: Einsatzgruppen_Killing.jpg]

What kinds of deaths have the Jews suffered at the hands of the kings of the nations?

[Image: jews-in-a-burning-pit-nuremberg-chronicl...;amp;h=360]

Strasbourg Massacre (This is where the Jews were burned alive for causing the Christians to get the plague.)
[Image: Jews_burned_to_death_in_Strasbourg_Feb._..._Death.jpg]
[Image: inquisition.jpg]

Reprobate Jews burnt alive for their heinous crimes against God, Christ, Christians and Gentiles in the Middle Ages
[Image: medievaljews1.jpg]

When I read Isaiah 53 in its proper context, and with its proper translation alongside the original Hebrew, I don't get a message about Jesus at all. Frankly, I don't see how you do.
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02-11-2015, 10:59 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 08:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  While it's clear to me that the writers of the NT only had a loose grasp on Judaism in the first century (let alone the historical aspects)

And they certainly wagered well that future generations would understand even less.

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02-11-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 10:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean that house of Israel "made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death BECAUSE he has done no violence, neither was ANY DECEIT in his mouth"?
Wait a minute! House of Israel has done NO violence?!!! House of Israel did NOT have DECEIT in his mouth?
Then why did God chase house of Israel many, many times?

Before I address the deceit or the violence, I would wager to guess that your bible has a mistranslation in it. I’d like to clear that up first:

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=3054]

To the wicked, the servant gives his grave. Ideally, humans like to bury their deceased loved ones in a burial plot that may be marked with some kind of identification. The Jews were denied this kind of grave and the wicked people who hurt them were afforded it.

To the wealthy, he is subjected to many kinds of death. (How many kinds of death did Jesus suffer?) The Jews were subjected to government-sanctioned attacks, murder and capital punishment just because they were Jewish. They were burned at the stake, they were drowned, their skin was peeled off their bodies, they were executed, and they were hanged.

Let’s take a look at what it means when it says that the Jews had to give up their (proper) graves (and their decent, respectable) burials to the wicked (who robbed them of this decency). I can really only give you pictorial evidence from the modern era, so here are a few gems from the wicked people who murdered Jews and tossed their bodies away like garbage.

[Image: a0b058109bb6b8c9d8bd6204966610dd.jpg]

Here are a few from Ukraine:

[Image: Nazi_Holocaust_by_bullets_-_Jewish_mass_...kraine.jpg]
[Image: Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-A0706-0018-029%2C_...kution.jpg]
[Image: Einsatzgruppen_Killing.jpg]

What kinds of deaths have the Jews suffered at the hands of the kings of the nations?

[Image: jews-in-a-burning-pit-nuremberg-chronicl...;amp;h=360]
Strasbourg Massacre (This is where the Jews were burned alive for causing the Christians to get the plague.)
[Image: Jews_burned_to_death_in_Strasbourg_Feb._..._Death.jpg]
[Image: inquisition.jpg]
Reprobate Jews burnt alive for their heinous crimes against God, Christ, Christians and Gentiles in the Middle Ages
[Image: medievaljews1.jpg]

When I read Isaiah 53 in it's proper context, and with its proper translation alongside the original Hebrew, I don't get a message about Jesus at all. Frankly, I don't see how you do.

Pwnt!

[Image: giphy.gif]
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02-11-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(01-11-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  Thank you for this information.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Christians often forget that these texts were written by Jews, and for Jews.
But not LDS Christians. We know that those books are from Jews and for Jews and for other tribes of house of Israel. We(12 tribes) are one nation, we are covenant people of God of Abraham, Isaak, and Jacob. It is even written in the Book of Mormon. So, I remember.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The key to understanding them is to first understand the mindset of the Jewish people.
It is helpful but it is not the key number one.
(01-11-2015 07:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The second key to understanding them is to learn what we have written in the Talmud, because this represents the unbroken chain of communication that extends directly back to Isaiah himself.
This key is not important at all. It(Talmud) is not written by the prophets of God of Israel. It is not from God. It is from men who have no authority from God to write Scriptures.

God's covenant people had and have living prophets among them. When there are no living prophets among God's covenant people there are learned men and their own philosophies. House of Israel is in apostasy when there are no living prophets. If God does not send living prophets to His covenant people as He always did, there is something wrong with these people. They do not deserve or they are not ready for living prophets. Why? Because they reject living prophets. They stone them to death or they crucify them.

ah a book of mormon reference, we all know how legit that is Big Grin

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02-11-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 10:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean that house of Israel "made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death BECAUSE he has done no violence, neither was ANY DECEIT in his mouth"?
Wait a minute! House of Israel has done NO violence?!!! House of Israel did NOT have DECEIT in his mouth?
Then why did God chase house of Israel many, many times?

Before I address the deceit or the violence, I would wager to guess that your bible has a mistranslation in it. I’d like to clear that up first:

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=3054]

To the wicked, the servant gives his grave. Ideally, humans like to bury their deceased loved ones in a burial plot that may be marked with some kind of identification. The Jews were denied this kind of grave and the wicked people who hurt them were afforded it.

To the wealthy, he is subjected to many kinds of death. (How many kinds of death did Jesus suffer?) The Jews were subjected to government-sanctioned attacks, murder and capital punishment just because they were Jewish. They were burned at the stake, they were drowned, their skin was peeled off their bodies, they were executed, and they were hanged.

Let’s take a look at what it means when it says that the Jews had to give up their (proper) graves (and their decent, respectable) burials to the wicked (who robbed them of this decency). I can really only give you pictorial evidence from the modern era, so here are a few gems from the wicked people who murdered Jews and tossed their bodies away like garbage.

[Image: a0b058109bb6b8c9d8bd6204966610dd.jpg]

Here are a few from Ukraine:

[Image: Nazi_Holocaust_by_bullets_-_Jewish_mass_...kraine.jpg]

Jews digging their own graves.
[Image: Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-A0706-0018-029%2C_...kution.jpg]
[Image: Einsatzgruppen_Killing.jpg]

What kinds of deaths have the Jews suffered at the hands of the kings of the nations?

[Image: jews-in-a-burning-pit-nuremberg-chronicl...;amp;h=360]

Strasbourg Massacre (This is where the Jews were burned alive for causing the Christians to get the plague.)
[Image: Jews_burned_to_death_in_Strasbourg_Feb._..._Death.jpg]
[Image: inquisition.jpg]

Reprobate Jews burnt alive for their heinous crimes against God, Christ, Christians and Gentiles in the Middle Ages
[Image: medievaljews1.jpg]

When I read Isaiah 53 in its proper context, and with its proper translation alongside the original Hebrew, I don't get a message about Jesus at all. Frankly, I don't see how you do.

Well that's what you get for being a bunch of Christ-killers. (Fun fact: the Catholic Church only withdrew their charge of deicide against all the Jews in 1965)

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02-11-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  Wait a minute! House of Israel has done NO violence?!!! House of Israel did NOT have DECEIT in his mouth?
Then why did God chase house of Israel many, many times?

I'm going to address the last part first, and then I want to get into a little bit more detail on the deceit and violence.

I assume you mean the exile. The cause for the exile is because of infighting among the Jews. The Jewish people were failing to act as a unit, and their divine mission was not being accomplished.

In my opinion, and the atheists here may well disagree with me on this, but I'm very impressed with how well the exile seems to be described in the Hebrew Scriptures. That exile is directly spoken about in these Servant Songs, and to my mind, it perfectly lines up with the Jewish experience.

And back to your first point; a little bit more about deceit and violence. You didn't sound very convinced in your original post that Israel may be viewed as being without deceit or violence. Let's discuss this a little further.

My position is that the Jewish people meet all of the requirements to be the servant described in Isaiah's servant songs. A good argument can be made that Israel engaged in warfare in the distant past, but we're talking about a prophecy told from a perspective that is looking forward into the future. It’s about the messianic era and it talks about the exile (which hadn't even happened yet at this point in the bible) coming to an end, and the Jewish people returning to Israel in time for the messianic era.

I’m making the argument that Isaiah’s Servant Songs are about the messianic era, and the time immediately leading up to the messianic era. I'm not going to try to make the argument that no individual Jew has been a liar, or hasn't been violent Looking back at the Jewish people from today’s perspective, do we see deceit and violence in Israel [the people as a whole unit]?

To this day, Israel continues to defend herself against the Palestinians, the Syrians, the Lebanese, and the Iranians. But do the Israelis attack first? Are the Jewish people as a whole unit known for being aggressive? Are Jewish people known for spreading lies to everyone or for planning a covert maneuver to take over the world as is described in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Did Jews fight back when they were taken to the gas chambers in the holocaust? Over the last 2,000 years as Jews have been forced to move from country to country, did they leave peacefully, or did they wage war on their host countries?

Eastern Europe, including the area that is now known as Ukraine, used to be the main hub of Jewish life until the late 1800’s. Some of the greatest Jewish sages, and even the father of Chassidism were from this area of the world. My own grandparents were from Shepetivka. Where are all these Jews now? Their roots extended back for hundreds of years. Why aren’t they still there?

We know the story well. Those that weren’t killed in the holocaust had been previously driven out in the 1890’s. They were herded onto ships and taken to the Americas. Prior to that, they were rounded up in Russia (and Ukraine), and forced to live in abysmal poverty in tiny little villages solely because they were Jewish.

When you when to school in Ukraine, did you learn about Jewish plots to overthrow the government? Did your teachers talk about what a threat the Jews were to European culture? Did you study the battles fought with the Jews in your land? –And when I say “battles,” I’m not talking about the ones where the ancestors of Eastern Europeans launched violent pogroms to raze Jewish villages, murder and rape their women, and kidnap their young men to put on the front lines in their wars. –All done in the name of Jesus to avenge his death, and to honor G-d by punishing the rejected people who were too stupid to read their own bibles and see that all it talks about is Jesus.

Where all of these vicious, violent battles that the Jews might have waged against their host countries? When you look at pictures of the holocaust, why aren’t the Jews ever shown wielding weapons, and lopping off the heads of their oppressors? Do we see Jews viciously attacking Muslims, even today? Do we see Jews strapping bombs to their chests and running through Mecca screaming, Adonee Echad?

Since Isaiah was written, do we see Jews launching an assault on any kind on the people who have openly hated them, spread horrible propaganda against them, and kicked them out of their homes and countries? Do we any justification on the parts of their Christian oppressors for exhibiting such behavior?

Isaiah’s Servant Songs talks about a people who are oppressed, beat down, subjugated, and treated horribly for no good reason at all. It talks about the gentile nations learning about this unjustified oppression and feeling embarrassed and mortified for the way that they and their ancestors behaved. It talks about the redemption of Israel, and the restoration of the Jews to their homeland. Finally, it talks about a promise of world-wide peace and prosperity for everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike.
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02-11-2015, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 06:57 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  Another question: "verse 10: he(meaning house of Israel according to you and whoever) made HIS SOUL an offering for sin"?
please examples: how did house of Israel offer his SOUL for sin?
what does it mean "to offer SOUL for sin"?

Good question. Unfortunately, this is yet another example of mistranslation. No human soul can be used as a sacrifice, and no soul is responsible for another person’s sin.

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In the Christian translation here, it looks like the servant is to be bruised or hurt for some reason, and his soul becomes an offering for sin.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:10 And the Lord wish to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and G-d’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.

In the Jewish version, the servant is being subjugated (just as we’ve seen happen to the Jews with our own eyes), only it doesn’t say that his soul is an offering for sin, it says that if he makes restitution, then he’ll be rewarded with physical children and prosperity of G-d’s divine plan. What a difference a few words can make!

------------------------------

Let’s take a look at the verse with in-line with the original Hebrew. As in my previous translation images, the translations are actually done by the Christians. I’m just showing you what the original Hebrew says, what the Christians translate it as, and how the cleaned up versions of the text appear in the Christian and Jewish texts in English.

[Image: datetaken]

From the original Hebrew, we learn that the servant (apparently a she) is experiencing some kind of remorse. You can ignore the word “offering” because it’s not supported in the original text. Sometimes Christians have to enhance their stories to make them fit their agenda.

The word “zera” or “seed” only refers to physical seed, or biological children. There is a different word that’s used for spiritual children.

The text is telling us that the servant (whoever that is) will be pushed down. The text says that during the exile, if the Jews make restitution, they’ll have children, their days will be prolonged and the Jewish mission (G-d’s purpose for them) will prosper.

------------------------------

Alla, I believe that I have made a very good case for the Jewish people being the servant. If after reading these very lengthy posts, you cannot see how the Jewish people fit the description, or if you cannot see how the Christians have changed the word of G-d to suit their own purposes, then at least I hope you can appreciate why the Jewish people have not, and will not ever worship Jesus. We are in fact educated about our scripture, and we do indeed have good reason for rejecting your god.

As much as I respect the Mormon people for being great citizens, for having a brilliant, altruistic heart, and for promoting secular education and charity among their members, I really just don’t wish to join them. I have read their texts, as have many other members of the Jewish community, and we have collectively come to a different conclusion.
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02-11-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 03:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  Another question: "verse 10: he(meaning house of Israel according to you and whoever) made HIS SOUL an offering for sin"?
please examples: how did house of Israel offer his SOUL for sin?
what does it mean "to offer SOUL for sin"?

Good question. Unfortunately, this is yet another example of mistranslation. No human soul can be used as a sacrifice, and no soul is responsible for another person’s sin.

Soooo.... what your saying is that the Original Sin doctrine is bullshit, according to the mythos source?

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02-11-2015, 04:44 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 04:20 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 03:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Good question. Unfortunately, this is yet another example of mistranslation. No human soul can be used as a sacrifice, and no soul is responsible for another person’s sin.

Soooo.... what your saying is that the Original Sin doctrine is bullshit, according to the mythos source?

The mythos source.... Oh, you mean my book! Rolleyes

Yes, the Christian concept of original sin cannot be based upon properly translated Jewish texts. I don't know where they get it from, but they're not getting it from us.
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02-11-2015, 04:53 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 12:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  Thank you for this information.
But not LDS Christians. We know that those books are from Jews and for Jews and for other tribes of house of Israel. We(12 tribes) are one nation, we are covenant people of God of Abraham, Isaak, and Jacob. It is even written in the Book of Mormon. So, I remember.
It is helpful but it is not the key number one.
This key is not important at all. It(Talmud) is not written by the prophets of God of Israel. It is not from God. It is from men who have no authority from God to write Scriptures.

God's covenant people had and have living prophets among them. When there are no living prophets among God's covenant people there are learned men and their own philosophies. House of Israel is in apostasy when there are no living prophets. If God does not send living prophets to His covenant people as He always did, there is something wrong with these people. They do not deserve or they are not ready for living prophets. Why? Because they reject living prophets. They stone them to death or they crucify them.

ah a book of mormon reference, we all know how legit that is Big Grin

You mean you don't buy that the philandering Joe Smith, who wanted to screw his wife's friends, (and did, to her dismay), who had almost no education could translate hieroglyphs before the Rosetta Stone was discovered ?
Or (the lying charlatan) who *found* "The Lost Book of Abraham" (who didn't even exist as a real person) ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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