Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
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04-11-2015, 04:18 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 07:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean that house of Israel "borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows"?
who are those people whose "sorrows and grief" house of Israel borne and carried?
what are the examples how house of Israel did it?

Christians view this passage as saying that the servant will absorb the grief, and carry sorrows on their shoulders. Traditional Judaism teaches us that servant is hurt because their enemies took action against them. They bore the brunt of their enemies bad behavior.

What we’re being told here is that the speakers in this passage have terrible behavior and have harmed the servant in some way. The speakers in this passage view the servant has being smitten by G-d, and so there was justification to treat them so badly.

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:4 Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains -he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

If the Jewish people are the servant, then I should be able to paint a picture of the Jewish experience in the past that lines up with our explanation of this verse.

Alla, I understand that you say that the Mormons have a different perspective, and that’s great, but the Christian movement as a whole have believed that because of Israel's sin, they lost their covenant with G-d. Christians have believed that they replaced the Jews as G-d's chosen people. They believed the Jews murdered Jesus and denied the “new truth”, and for this reason, they felt empowered to subjugate the Jews living in their land as though they were acting with G-d's divine authority to punish the wayward children.

(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean "to lay on house of Israel the iniquity of all us? who are "us"? how does house of Israel lay iniquity of all us? please, examples.

This passage doesn’t say that the iniquity of everyone has to fall on the servant, as though the servant exists to absorb other people’s sins. It just says that the servant prayed for everyone and his prayers were accepted. Christians are trying to turn the servant into their messiah, so they have to change a few things in order to bring this story in-line with their Jesus story. That’s scripture twisting.

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

In your version, the Lord takes the iniquity of the people who are speaking and places that iniquity on the shoulders of the servant.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

In my version, the servant prayed for the people who have sinned, and the Lord accepted the servant’s prayers.

These are not the same thing! How can the Authorized King James Version of the Bible have strayed so far from the original Hebrew so as to have changed the essence and meaning of the text?

The kings of the nations are introduced as the new first person perspective in 52:13. They take over as the first person in the narrative in 53:1.

The kings of the many nations are disgusted with the servant. In my experience with Christianity, the kings of many nations have been worshipping Jesus. Even the Muslims regard Jesus as being a respected prophet. -No one is disgusted with Jesus. Not now, and not as a trend through history. The Jewish people, on the other hand, have (by their very existence) disgusted many nations -even from before the time that Jesus was said to have lived. The Jewish people have a long, intricate history of dealing with baseless hatred expressed toward them.
Thanks for explaining how Jewish people understand these verses. It was interesting to read.
P.S. As I said before LDS do not believe that God of Israel replaced Jews with Christians. We believe that God's chosen people were, are and always will be house of Israel. Any gentile who joins God's true Church become part of God's covenant people house of Israel. We believe that God brings together lost tribes of Israel and that tribe of Judah will accept Christ(Messiah) - the one who was crucified 2000 years ago.

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04-11-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 10:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(30-10-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  what does it mean that house of Israel "made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death BECAUSE he has done no violence, neither was ANY DECEIT in his mouth"?
Wait a minute! House of Israel has done NO violence?!!! House of Israel did NOT have DECEIT in his mouth?
Then why did God chase house of Israel many, many times?

Before I address the deceit or the violence, I would wager to guess that your bible has a mistranslation in it. I’d like to clear that up first:

(Authorized King James Version) Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

(Judaica Press) Isaiah 53:9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

[Image: datetaken]

To the wicked, the servant gives his grave. Ideally, humans like to bury their deceased loved ones in a burial plot that may be marked with some kind of identification. The Jews were denied this kind of grave and the wicked people who hurt them were afforded it.

To the wealthy, he is subjected to many kinds of death. (How many kinds of death did Jesus suffer?) The Jews were subjected to government-sanctioned attacks, murder and capital punishment just because they were Jewish. They were burned at the stake, they were drowned, their skin was peeled off their bodies, they were executed, and they were hanged.

Let’s take a look at what it means when it says that the Jews had to give up their (proper) graves (and their decent, respectable) burials to the wicked (who robbed them of this decency). I can really only give you pictorial evidence from the modern era, so here are a few gems from the wicked people who murdered Jews and tossed their bodies away like garbage.

[Image: a0b058109bb6b8c9d8bd6204966610dd.jpg]

Here are a few from Ukraine:

[Image: Nazi_Holocaust_by_bullets_-_Jewish_mass_...kraine.jpg]

Jews digging their own graves.
[Image: Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-A0706-0018-029%2C_...kution.jpg]
[Image: Einsatzgruppen_Killing.jpg]

What kinds of deaths have the Jews suffered at the hands of the kings of the nations?

[Image: jews-in-a-burning-pit-nuremberg-chronicl...;amp;h=360]

Strasbourg Massacre (This is where the Jews were burned alive for causing the Christians to get the plague.)
[Image: Jews_burned_to_death_in_Strasbourg_Feb._..._Death.jpg]
[Image: inquisition.jpg]

Reprobate Jews burnt alive for their heinous crimes against God, Christ, Christians and Gentiles in the Middle Ages
[Image: medievaljews1.jpg]

When I read Isaiah 53 in its proper context, and with its proper translation alongside the original Hebrew, I don't get a message about Jesus at all. Frankly, I don't see how you do.
Thank you.
I have been at this place in Kiev, Ukraine. I was born there and I lived there. That place calls "Babiy Yar". It is very beautiful but sad place to be.

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04-11-2015, 11:45 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(02-11-2015 04:44 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 04:20 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Soooo.... what your saying is that the Original Sin doctrine is bullshit, according to the mythos source?

The mythos source.... Oh, you mean my book! Rolleyes

Yes the collection of myths your religion is built on. I'm fairly sure he made that rather clear. Drinking Beverage

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05-11-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(04-11-2015 11:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 04:44 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The mythos source.... Oh, you mean my book! Rolleyes

Yes the collection of myths your religion is built on. I'm fairly sure he made that rather clear. Drinking Beverage

Thanks. Actually, I already worked it out. Smile

Much appreciated, though.

(Just because I'm a theist...... Angry)
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05-11-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(05-11-2015 06:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 11:45 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Yes the collection of myths your religion is built on. I'm fairly sure he made that rather clear. Drinking Beverage

Thanks. Actually, I already worked it out. Smile

Much appreciated, though.

(Just because I'm a theist...... Angry)

Me poking fun at you has nothing to do with you being a theist and everything to do with your believing silly shit. If the conversation was about healing crystals, plam reading, anti-vaxx, or telekinesis I'd still poke fun at you.
Silly shit is silly shit.

Edit: if you don't like sarcastic answers maybe don't give sarcastic answers?

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05-11-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(05-11-2015 08:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 06:47 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Thanks. Actually, I already worked it out. Smile

Much appreciated, though.

(Just because I'm a theist...... Angry)

Me poking fun at you has nothing to do with you being a theist and everything to do with your believing silly shit. If the conversation was about healing crystals, plam reading, anti-vaxx, or telekinesis I'd still poke fun at you.
Silly shit is silly shit.

Edit: if you don't like sarcastic answers maybe don't give sarcastic answers?

The thread is about a debate with a fundamentalist (Christian) on the translation of Isaiah 53. I’m providing information that was directly asked of me. I didn’t come here to insult your beliefs, and I don’t think I’ve warranted your insults toward mine.

I don’t understand why my belief system should affect you in any way. Yours doesn’t affect me.
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05-11-2015, 11:21 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
(05-11-2015 04:14 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 08:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Me poking fun at you has nothing to do with you being a theist and everything to do with your believing silly shit. If the conversation was about healing crystals, plam reading, anti-vaxx, or telekinesis I'd still poke fun at you.
Silly shit is silly shit.

Edit: if you don't like sarcastic answers maybe don't give sarcastic answers?

The thread is about a debate with a fundamentalist (Christian) on the translation of Isaiah 53. I’m providing information that was directly asked of me. I didn’t come here to insult your beliefs, and I don’t think I’ve warranted your insults toward mine.

I don’t understand why my belief system should affect you in any way. Yours doesn’t affect me.

First off you gave a eye rolling sarcastic remark to something someone said so I gave a sarcastic remark to what you said. I was not aware we had implemented a double standard on sarcasm on the forum which I am now, with this sentence, guilty of twice. My bad. Thrice.Drinking Beverage
Secondly you implied I was calling your mythology mythology because you were a theist which I was not. I attempted to get you down off the Persecution Complex horse by explaining that you being a theist had nothing to do with me calling your mythology mythology and everything to do with your mythology being mythology. You could have been a Hindu, an atheist, a Mormon or a bloody merman for all it would matter to me, it's an irrelevancy, and I'd call a myth a myth no mater what your belief system is just like I do when I talk to other atheists other Christians and other Jews. The fact that you happen to belie this myth is not a myth does not make it not a myth or requirement to not treat it like a myth nor is my failure to join you in pretending it's not mythology an insult to you or your beliefs.
If you are shocked and appalled that you would find a atheist that considers your religion, with it's total lack of evidence or rationality, to be silly and without substance on the internet (and on an atheist forum no less! What scandal!)..well I don't know what to tell you bub, maybe it's not the right place for such a thin skinned person to be? That said I'm sorry you had to sit there and stomach my brutal and vicious attack of your beliefs with the word "silly".

If you don't like having your beliefs called silly....maybe don't hold silly beliefs??
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That goes double for you Alla you lil' nut case. Heart

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06-11-2015, 11:32 PM
RE: Discussion with a Fundie about The OT
If you are going to put me on ignore for expressing my belief that your religion is based on a myth that has no supporting evidence just put me on ignore mate, that's what it's there for. It's not there so that you can type up a childish passive-aggressive PM telling me how much you don't care what I believe, especially given that you apparently cared so much you had to tell me how little you cared both here and in PM and made sure I knew how much you didn't care, and the slap me on ignore before I can respond to your passive-aggressive whining. Makes you look like a pouty lil' bitch.

If this is how your respond to the most basic of criticism an atheist, on an atheist forum no less, could possibly level at your religion (it's a myth and it's silly) it's no wonder you still subscribe to that misogynistic, child mutilating, barbaric nonsense.

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