Discussions with my father, a philosopher
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-09-2013, 06:50 PM
Discussions with my father, a philosopher
My father is a mennonite/professor/philosopher type person, so naturally his arguments are more sophisticated than most religious people. He brought up the standard "easy way out" arguments of conditions being just right and what not. He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-09-2013, 09:23 PM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 06:50 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  My father is a mennonite/professor/philosopher type person, so naturally his arguments are more sophisticated than most religious people. He brought up the standard "easy way out" arguments of conditions being just right and what not. He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Welcome to the forum.

Events relating to Jesus' death are described differently in the four gospels.
If a cosmic super power that is also kind exists, then I imagine conditions relating to the development of souls (if this does happen) would require appropriate conditions.
This could be spiritually similar to material evolution, but far more complex.

Many fundamentalist Christians see Jesus (God via Father and link to Holy Spirit) as in a sense destroying itself (via Crucfiixion) and this is an odd idea.
The spilt blood of the crucifixion is held by some to be cleansing of sin in preparation for higher things, in that believers by turning to Jesus can be spiritually 'moved' towards the good. In other words we need more than our reasoning from scriptural writings to transcend our secular limitations.

Of course there are born again Christians who sort of accept Jesus as a sort of security blanket, to forgive them, and just go on with all manner of bad behaviour.
The Bible (for those so inclined) does say faith without works is dead, so it appears that Christians really need to analyse the scriptural directives they are being taught very carefully indeed, for fear of pushing some wrong buttons.........
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-09-2013, 09:28 PM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 06:50 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  My father is a mennonite/professor/philosopher type person, so naturally his arguments are more sophisticated than most religious people. He brought up the standard "easy way out" arguments of conditions being just right and what not. He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Paul, the snake-oil salesman, had a lot to do with Jesus' after death popularity. I'd read into the history of Paul and his political/personal needs to be a charlatan.

Think Benny Hinn, but old school Wink

Also, welcome to the forum! Your dad sounds like fun, at least his mind is exploring! Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-09-2013, 09:31 PM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 06:50 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  My father is a mennonite/professor/philosopher type person, so naturally his arguments are more sophisticated than most religious people. He brought up the standard "easy way out" arguments of conditions being just right and what not. He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Argumentum ad populum - a logical fallacy. Doesn't matter how many people believe something to be true, it has no effect on the veracity of the statement.

[Image: Hitchhikersguide_zps7678fbae.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
28-09-2013, 09:53 PM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 06:50 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  My father is a mennonite/professor/philosopher type person, so naturally his arguments are more sophisticated than most religious people. He brought up the standard "easy way out" arguments of conditions being just right and what not. He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I think it might better be put as "the question of why Christianity became so popular after the story of Jesus' death. Not saying it didn't happen, but there are some issues with the historicity of the whole thing. Even if there was a Jesus, and he was crucified, where is the evidence of his divinity?

It's all in the story. People love a good story. Location and timing. Rome didn't like the story at first, but once it provided political motivations Rome took off with it pretty hardcore. I don't know that I would describe it as becoming popular, so much as mandatory.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-09-2013, 10:27 PM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
Well, actually the early Christians, for a LONG LONG time thought of themselves as a sub-sect of Judaism. The people of the "Way". (See Acts). At the end of the 1st Century, the Jewish High Priest had to read an "Expulsion Curse", as they wanted the troube-makers OUT. As late as 400 CE, "Christians" were still going to the synagogue, and the proof is in the Christmas sermon of "St." John Chrysostom, where he tells them to stop it. So maybe he should look into what the REAL history was, not what he assumes it was. Also there's a book he could check out, called "A House Divided" by a Harvard sociologist (Vincent Martin) about the LONG complex process of the break of Christianity from Jewry.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ATocfSo...&q&f=false
It was not as "poplular" as he might think, and the REAL reason for it's growth was political, a few centuries later, due to the Roman Emperor, (Constantine ... who said he "converted" but actually is known to not have converted), desire to use it as a tool to organize, and unify the empire, just as the Persian emperor used Judaism to unify the Jews, post exile.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
The noblest of the dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 05:29 AM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 09:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Argumentum ad populum - a logical fallacy. Doesn't matter how many people believe something to be true, it has no effect on the veracity of the statement.

It doesn't prove anything, 100% of people can believe one thing but in reality the opposite might be true. However, in many instances, the more people who believe something the more likely it is that something is true. There is a reason that on that show, "Who wants to be a millionaire" the audience is right over 90% of the time. This is called crowd wisdom and it works when the crowd is in a position to know(such as on the show, "Who wants to be a millionaire").

Now with regard to Christianity.....If you can say with reasonable certainty that the general population would be in position to know if Christianity is the one true religion, you have to give the crowd some respect. However if the general population is not in a position to know if Christianity is the one true religion, crowd wisdom doesn't operate and you can dismiss the opinion of the crowd.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 05:58 AM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 06:50 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

There was apocalyptic preachers running around, then Judea gets its clock cleaned by Rome, which looked pretty apocalyptic, so the populus prolly figured that they might know something. Thumbsup

But there was two hidden elements involved with Christianity that account for its rise. One, it was free. If you wanted to worship someone cool like Isis, you had to pay; you had to pay real money. Two, it was evangelical. Proponents were commanded to spread the gospel; an unheard of practice at the time. Cults like Isis were cliquish and exclusive, where Christianity accepted any kind of rabble.

It succeeded because it appealed to the poor, who were otherwise limited to to the household gods of lares and penates - which were boring - and it promised eternal life in paradise to its adherents, whose lives were anything but eternal and paradisiacal.

And as for argumentum ad populum, it does have some merit, but in this case that merit is easily understood. These people lived in a harsh environment of hunger and disease, external threats, crop failures and droughts. One of the key elements of consciousness is simulation of future, and to simulate such a harsh future is to lose all hope. Therefore the construction of an eternal, unchanging paradigm was inevitable. Even today, many people need to believe in a constant in the face of shifting uncertainties.

[Image: 10289811_592837817482059_8815379025397103823_n.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
29-09-2013, 09:32 PM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(28-09-2013 09:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-09-2013 06:50 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  My father is a mennonite/professor/philosopher type person, so naturally his arguments are more sophisticated than most religious people. He brought up the standard "easy way out" arguments of conditions being just right and what not. He also brought up the question of why Christianity became so popular after Jesus's death. I've never heard that one before, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Argumentum ad populum - a logical fallacy. Doesn't matter how many people believe something to be true, it has no effect on the veracity of the statement.

I don't think that's a fallacy, and neither do most people.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dark Light's post
30-09-2013, 01:59 AM
RE: Discussions with my father, a philosopher
(29-09-2013 09:32 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(28-09-2013 09:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Argumentum ad populum - a logical fallacy. Doesn't matter how many people believe something to be true, it has no effect on the veracity of the statement.

I don't think that's a fallacy, and neither do most people.

[Image: translation-i-see-what-you-did-there_o_1852513.webp]

[Image: Hitchhikersguide_zps7678fbae.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
Post Reply

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Son vs Father Im_Ryan 20 620 08-01-2014 06:16 PM
Last Post: Im_Ryan
  Face to Faith discussions ufo42 12 772 24-04-2013 04:01 PM
Last Post: ufo42
  Attempted Discussions with Theists TheSixthGlass 30 3,481 23-03-2013 01:07 PM
Last Post: f stop
Forum Jump: