Disillusioning Christians
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28-03-2017, 12:00 AM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(27-03-2017 07:00 PM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  Lately I've been making FB posts posing questions to my Christian friends to get them to think. Am I wrong for this? Their faith seems harmless (besides the fact that they believe homosexuality is a sin & women are inferior to their husbands). But besides that, their faith makes them more compassionate people. Is there any justifiable reason to try & disillusion them?

Bullshit. Their faith doesn't teach compassion. I teaches discrimination, exclusion, and a belief that their belief holds more weight over a nonbeliever. They force feed dogma into small children to basically scare them into the belief system. Once the dogma takes hold it is very hard to break. Teaching small children things that clearly not true is a is one of the worst things you can do to an impressionable child.

So with that said... their faith is not harmless at all.

I get to decide what my life looks like, not the other way around.
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28-03-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(27-03-2017 07:00 PM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  Lately I've been making FB posts posing questions to my Christian friends to get them to think. Am I wrong for this?

You're only wrong for thinking that FB posts will change anything.

Quote:Their faith seems harmless (besides the fact that they believe homosexuality is a sin & women are inferior to their husbands).

It isn't harmless even if you don't want to admit it. To two listed things that make it "harmless" you could presumably add opposition to abortion and euthanasia which in my experience are tied to faith.

Quote:But besides that, their faith makes them more compassionate people.

How?

Quote:Is there any justifiable reason to try & disillusion them?

Making them better people, by convincing them to reject their primitive faith and nonsensical notions of gays being evil and women inferior with it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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28-03-2017, 05:54 AM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(27-03-2017 11:21 PM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  
(27-03-2017 07:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  You've answered your own question, i.e. " they believe homosexuality is a sin & women are inferior to their husbands".

Yes those are both negative things, but I guess what I'm asking is... is that enough reason to justify me crushing their whole faith? Why not just try to convince them that homosexuality isn't morally wrong or that women should be treated as equals? Why attack their whole faith instead?

Because they are basing their decisions on beliefs that have no rational basis. That affects their own lives in many ways (e.g. time and money thrown away, wasting time praying instead of working to solve problems, etc). It also affects those around them and ripples out to the rest of society. Moderate believers provide support and justification for more fundamentalist believers and they can be a real threat to the rights of others.

Do you think a society has a better chance of prospering if most people in it base their decisions on reason or if most base them on irrational beliefs? There is nothing of benefit in religion that can't be found in other ways and there is potential harm from it.

I would agree that it is more important to wean them from the harmful beliefs and attitudes but I see no good reason to stop there. If they retain the mindset that it is good to believe on faith then they are open to the next bad idea that comes along.

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28-03-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(28-03-2017 01:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(27-03-2017 07:00 PM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  Lately I've been making FB posts posing questions to my Christian friends to get them to think. Am I wrong for this?

You're only wrong for thinking that FB posts will change anything.

Ok this makes sense. So how would you recommend I go about it? I only chose FB because it's a wide platform. I obviously don't expect anyone to change overnight. But FB was a huge reason why I personally ended up leaving the faith
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28-03-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(28-03-2017 05:56 AM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  
(28-03-2017 01:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  You're only wrong for thinking that FB posts will change anything.

Ok this makes sense. So how would you recommend I go about it? I only chose FB because it's a wide platform. I obviously don't expect anyone to change overnight. But FB was a huge reason why I personally ended up leaving the faith

I wouldn't recommend anything as I'm not interested in proselytizing.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-03-2017, 10:44 AM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(27-03-2017 07:00 PM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  Lately I've been making FB posts posing questions to my Christian friends to get them to think. Am I wrong for this? Their faith seems harmless (besides the fact that they believe homosexuality is a sin & women are inferior to their husbands). But besides that, their faith makes them more compassionate people. Is there any justifiable reason to try & disillusion them?

Perhaps you might interest them in a little thought experiment and let them hash it out amongst themselves.

Let's say, for instance, that conclusive proof was found that Jesus was not bodily resurrected. Finding bones with unequivocal attestations to their authenticity that were undeniable might be a place to start.

Therefore, the basis of Christianity, the fundamental bedrock of the faith, would have been found to be false.

If that were the case, would these good people - whom I have no doubt are decent, honest and compassionate human beings - suddenly turn to cruelty, debauchery, hate and nastiness?

Perhaps they would, but I think probably not.

Now, ask them of terrors and crimes, wars and genocides committed specifically in the name of religion: did religious faith make those things better or worse?

At best, the answer to the second question would be a draw.

Those are just arrows that point in the direction that religious faith is not a prerequisite for being a compassionate, decent, loving human being.
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30-03-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
IMO the best way to lead others to question their religious beliefs is to be an irrefutable example of how someone can be an unbeliever and yet remain an entirely moral, empathetic person. This will lead those who are open to change to reflect on their beliefs. I know this is how I was "turned".

In other words: show, don't tell . It totally screws with the verse "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another", John 13:35, and the concept that they are somehow "the chosen people"..

This is the safest way of approaching the idea of disillusionment/disabusing someone of their beliefs, because when you do decide on this course of action, you are assuming that the believer is ready to change, and that they can "take it", as it were, that they are not depressive and clinging to their faith for hope in a hopeless world. And that is not always the case.

I would tread carefully. It's kind of like being a parent and telling your teenager that their boyfriend/girlfriend isn't right for them; you risk making them take the opposite position, just to prove that "you're not the boss of me". Better to encourage them to start down their own path towards questioning their beliefs.

Your faith is not evidence, your opinion is not fact, and your bias is not wisdom
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30-03-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
(27-03-2017 07:00 PM)DoubtingThomas Wrote:  Lately I've been making FB posts posing questions to my Christian friends to get them to think. Am I wrong for this? Their faith seems harmless (besides the fact that they believe homosexuality is a sin & women are inferior to their husbands). But besides that, their faith makes them more compassionate people. Is there any justifiable reason to try & disillusion them?

> They can also discover that their empathy with others can make them compassionate. No God or religion necessary.

> You might find out that it's impossible to disillusion them, especially if their faith is a crutch of support. If you try to kick that crutch out from under them, all you will accomplish is to make them cling to that crutch with all their might. It would be better to persuade them to think rationally, so as to throw away that crutch on their own.

> Another thing you have to keep in mind is the length of time they have relied on faith and how much of a psychological investment they have in their religion. The more of an investment they have, the more likely that they will view any attempt at disillusioning them as a threat. Consider
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30-03-2017, 09:56 PM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
Nope. You're doing Baphamet's work. Peace be with you.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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03-07-2017, 05:55 PM
RE: Disillusioning Christians
I've thought a lot about the claim that religion makes some people "better people", "moral", etc. As someone who was formerly very religious, I can tell you there are some wonderful people in the church who have definitely built their system of values and morals around their interpretation of biblical doctrine...

BUT... I feel certain at this point in my life that it is in fact the structure and framework for the moral code, including and especially the story-telling and metaphorical aspects of it.

In business management you learn a lot about aphorisms, acronyms, and other basic mechanisms for expressing and remembering complex principles. I've long considered the possibility that a loosely-organized, science-based, non-theistic social philosophy could become universal in a single human lifetime if we ever woke up to this fact.

Embracing the common human need for mythology, structure, and simplicity, we could create a positive, holistic framework for understanding the universe and morality. Science and philosophy, honest story-telling... what a fun project to undertake, now I think about it..
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