Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-08-2013, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2013 03:56 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(26-08-2013 03:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 03:36 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Whether divinity is nowhere or everywhere, isn't it exactly the same?
It's like saying bacon is divine. Whether it is divine or not, it's still made from the same building blocks, it tastes the same and it has the same use. Actually, bacon IS divine. Just not in the sense we're talking about.

The difference is that if you consider everything divine, you might start praying to the mountain. Or to yourself. Not exactly like atheism.

Girly likes his metaphysics even if he knows it is all smoke and mirrors.

Girly likes his metaphysics precisely because it's all smoke and mirrors. ... And Girly's reserving judgment on physics. Tongue

(26-08-2013 03:36 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  The difference is that if you consider everything divine, you might start praying to the mountain. Or to yourself. Not exactly like atheism.

Blush ... well maybe a little like this atheist ... Blush

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
26-08-2013, 08:28 PM
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'm not sure about the electromagnetic, but purely electric, perhaps.
If we project an electric field of a given intensity, then this field is dampened by proximity of vital objects and the intensity decreases. Vitality of this object is then in inverse proportion to the field's intensity.
This decrease does not respond to conventional electrically charged objects.
The Experimental Life-Energy Field Meter meter works along entirely new principles quite different from any other measuring device currently on the market. Is entirely different from ordinary "EM-field" meters. It is not responsive to electromagnetic fields, nor to static magnetic or electrostatic fields. An electrostatically-charged plastic comb or wand, for example, will show no reactions to the Life Energy Field Meter, other than what would occur from the same plastic comb or wand without the electrostatic charge. This is quite different from the usual voltmeter, which reacts strongly to electrostatic fields. Likewise, no greater readings will be developed between an ordinary piece of metal, or the same piece of metal strongly magnetized.

There's no such thing as purely electric (barring pure electrostatics which hare an abstraction...).

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  This effect was first discovered by Wilhelm Reich and further studied by James DeMeo.
http://www.orgonelab.org/cart/ylemeter.htm
http://www.orgonelab.org/cart/lemeter.htm
Of course, this is not my method that I use, only a method I selected as most probable in the light of my personal observations.

If that were real it would be of incredible value. It is not recognized or widely used. Why not?

Papers marked "it's a conspiracy" will not be graded.

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You are jumping to conclusions. I said a candidate on divinity, not divinity.

Well.
(25-08-2013 03:11 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The nature of the divine is energy.

If that claim was merely for the sake of argument, then that was unclear. But I apologize for weighing the statement too heavily.

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You gave it to me by using the word "show", see further.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you interpreted 'show' in too literal a sense; while the strict definition refers to the visual it is a perfectly valid use to take the word as construing any demonstration or conveyance. But such was already covered by your second point, hence my confusion.

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If you were using your brain fully, you would not assume this incoherent absolute. You would not assume that I'm stupid, you'd think perhaps that I meant something else that is not obviously incoherent, like "of lower intensity than is measurable by instruments at the present level of technology." But you seem quite happy with stopping at that and that is a reason why I don't trust you with honest use of words like "show". Right now you're not reading all that I write and you're not reading the intention with which I write. We can't successfully communicate like that.

I may stray to a more literal reading than intended, but such is only to avoid construing an interpretation you did not intend.

In a physical sense measurement and interaction are broadly synonymous. A non-physical interaction is a contradiction in terms.

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No, I gave you a working definition of non-living matter, according to the parameters that I think might be relevant for the argument. Only you switched off your brain and went into assumption that I am stupid, therefore I am just stringing words together. Another reason why I don't trust you.

You did not define structure, and you conflated low entropy with non-living (without defining living). 'Homogeneous' is defined differently in different contexts but that one I'll give you.

You clearly have specific internalised definitions of these words as you use them. Unfortunately your meaning is not clear to me.

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You did not comment on the hypothesis.
Also, you assumed that I am stupid enough to actually present an arbitrary label of "divinity" as an answer. I assure you, I am not as stupid as that. I just need to see if you are receiving, so I can actually present it. You clearly aren't.

I wouldn't bother with this dialogue if I didn't want to know what you had to say.

Quit the passive-aggressive shit. I make no assumptions as to your intelligence; if that was your reading I regret it and apologize. I found your statements insufficiently developed. It would also be lovely if you'd stop implying me to be unwilling or unable to understand you.

(26-08-2013 03:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, I'm not paying you anything and you show typical signs that you're only interested in arguing. So far there's every sign that all would be wasted on you.
Your brain is not receiving properly what I say. If it did, you'd be much more reserved in judgement than you are, you would know as well as I do when I did or did not make an argument and what the argument was about. Trust me, I've seen this attitude many times. This is not an attitude of someone who is willing to do one's homework.

Blaming me for miscommunication is not productive. Impugning my willingness to investigate is insulting. You are making nebulous and poorly-defined claims. I cannot find grounds to consider them without understanding precisely what you are claiming. If you don't feel it worth your time to attempt further explanation that's your prerogative.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-08-2013, 04:33 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 06:37 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(26-08-2013 08:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  There's no such thing as purely electric (barring pure electrostatics which are an abstraction...).
Aha. Well, I would not exclude pure electrostatics. The experiments do not seem to involve magnetism at all. Electro-static charge seems to be the primary medium of interaction.

The theory currently says, that this mysterious medium is plasma of some kind, electrically charged, present in atmosphere, Sun, solar system. Its atomic or particle nature is unknown, yet. Because it is electrically charged, it reacts to highly structured matter, with many layers of various conductivity, it reacts to capacitors. (and living matter with a plenty of cellular walls) The basic experiment set up involves building a big room with walls of metal and plastic or paper layers, which is, essentially, a capacitor. However, this mysterious plasma does not charge the capacitor, it gets caught inside the room. Which suggests the capacitor walls do have some innate charge that is inimical to this plasma - perhaps counteracting its own electric charge, thus slowing it down when it blows in like solar wind, and slowing it down even more when it wants to fly out, thus creating a local concentration of this unidentified plasma. A higher local concentration allows for experimental demonstrations.

This concentration does alter physical parameters of living things, water, metals, and measuring instruments. Most notably, it altered the function of a standard neutron detector, which has an isolated chamber similar to the capacitor room. It made it react strongly to these things:

Passive neutron counts like reactor values. Which would in my layman mind suggest that this plasma is atomic in nature and does contain neutrons, or perhaps neutrons hold it in the atomic core of common matter, without our knowledge. The latter would correlate with some other research. It is interesting to compare a typical blue glow of this plasma with the notion of Cherenkov radiation. It anyway goes badly for the safety of nuclear technology and may lead to some changes or additions in particle theory.

Anomalous readings on the charged neutron counter, reacting highly to people, other concentration of plasma, thunderstorms and so on.

Neutron counter and sunspots correlation

(26-08-2013 08:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If that were real it would be of incredible value. It is not recognized or widely used. Why not?

Papers marked "it's a conspiracy" will not be graded.
Good question! This is why I contacted the website author and asked him this personally. By the way, conspiracy is a common practice in world of money and politics. Scientific method can not lie, everyone else can. And there is a lot of money and government in science, it's the fourth economic sector, therefore a lot of corruption. If you believed what Fox news say about stem cell research and evolution, you probably wouldn't fund this research.

- Skeptics are only half-wrong. Much of this research is associated with name of Wilhelm Reich, who has a bad reputation and entertained overly... physiologic and sexualistic theories himself. The New Age community made a circus out of all serious research and skeptical community dragged all of this through the mud, they had a field day in criticizing all remotely connected to this research. They went over the board with criticism into the realm of slander and were greatly successful. There is an evidence of this, skeptical articles based on falsehood and also proper responses and refutations to them, which never got this nearly as much attention.
http://www.orgonelab.org/skeptics.htm

- This plasma which Reich called orgone behaves in a very counter-intuitive way, which seems to defy mechanistic principles. It passes through walls except highly structured walls or living matter, (or water or metals) which have significant capacitive properties.
In my opinion is obviously mechanistic, but we have to assume that this medium is present all around Earth, Sun and solar system, controlled by their fields, so it obeys a greater dynamics. We must not assume that the space is empty and isolated.
This kind of reasoning comes naturally to various New Agey types, unfortunately.
However, it's all so counter-intuitive, that only those who have a personal experience with this phenomenon, respond to this message reliably. Others need to do their homework and peruse the science.

- "There are plenty of peer-reviewed papers. Most all of the orgonomic journals, including Reich's original ones, were peer-reviewed. See the on-line Bibliography on Orgonomy, and my own publications list for details:"
http://www.orgonelab.org/bibliog.htm
http://www.orgonelab.org/demeopubs.htm

- The mainstream media are too biased, they print ridicule and slander from well-organized skeptic clubs, or they print nothing on the topic. The clubs have much greater and more entertaining literary output and it would not be very political to turn a 180 degrees and alienate the skeptical community, or, to give a minority voice a 50 % of space when there is so much similar New Age crap around.

- If you think I am passive aggressive, then the researcher is totally on the edge. Nerves wrecked from the decades of taking crap from people who did not do their homework, yet got all the space in journals and media. He's very old, set in his ways and focused on the work. He's not likely to go into a new campaign to make the journals believe enough to publish the articles. I also see he has some opinions I can not fully agree with, which I see as a sign of long isolation. Remember, he lived through the times when FDA burned Reich's books, got him jailed on a technicality and let him die in jail. History sucks.

(26-08-2013 08:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I may stray to a more literal reading than intended, but such is only to avoid construing an interpretation you did not intend.

In a physical sense measurement and interaction are broadly synonymous. A non-physical interaction is a contradiction in terms.

You did not define structure, and you conflated low entropy with non-living (without defining living). 'Homogeneous' is defined differently in different contexts but that one I'll give you.

You clearly have specific internalised definitions of these words as you use them. Unfortunately your meaning is not clear to me.
I wouldn't bother with this dialogue if I didn't want to know what you had to say.
Thanks, I will try to be more careful, but I needed to make clear how serious I am. What I present includes decades of man-hours of scientific work. I spent years arguing and going into internet conflicts, learning then that this is a problem of communication and great assumptions on both sides.

Yes, I have lots of internalized definitions and order in concepts. It corresponds to science, but it originates from my own personal observations. I can not however present these, till we lay down that this phenomenon has electric, plasmatic properties, that react highly with structured materials like living human body. Human body, with the skin and cellular walls, large and active nerve system and blood being pumped all around it like a dynamo, that is the greatest receiver of this mysterious plasma, dwarfed only by a planetary or solar spheres.

(26-08-2013 08:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Quit the passive-aggressive shit. I make no assumptions as to your intelligence; if that was your reading I regret it and apologize. I found your statements insufficiently developed. It would also be lovely if you'd stop implying me to be unwilling or unable to understand you.
No conscious assumptions, that is. I've seen that people in personal contact understand better than when arguing over the internet. I needed to be a little passive aggressive to get your attention, because it drops and it goes back to the things you know, instead of paying attention to new information. It's time to get professional, even in face of some seemingly New Agey presentations and I know that's not easy. It can be painful to read something we deeply disagree with.

Tell me when you get a good basic understanding of this Reich's orgone stuff, especially that it has
- electric, or electro-static properties and behavior corresponding to plasma dynamics. I have another, independent research to back it up, that the electro-static charge plays a primary role.
http://www.miroslavprovod.com/
I don't believe it is purely electro-static, there seems to be a new order of matter involved, but I would go as far as claiming that it is impossible to understand fully the physics of electrostatic charge without knowing the role of this plasmatic matter.

- deep affinity with living organisms, (due to mentioned reasons) and with some natural structures, like river meanders, underground water streams, atmosphere, weather and so on, obviously because of their isolative, capacitive and perhaps even indirectly inductive properties, that induce more electric charge with ambient magnetic fields.

- potentially great historical, cultural and religious implications, which will test your woo filter.

Then I can move on to show how this is relevant to various health and religious practices. You are probably not a social scientist, so this may not come to you naturally, but I believe an inter-disciplinary research is the key to the topic. Imagine it like that, there were centuries and millenia of people experimenting with their body and consciousness and they wrote down their findings in a very nebulous, but still identifiable way. This is just a partial point, next we will focus on modern scientific discoveries in plasma dynamics, which confirm it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-09-2013, 07:50 PM
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Aha. Well, I would not exclude pure electrostatics. The experiments do not seem to involve magnetism at all. Electro-static charge seems to be the primary medium of interaction.

There is no such thing as pure electrostatics. Moving charges cause magnetism.

If you can disprove that there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The theory currently says, that this mysterious medium is plasma of some kind, electrically charged, present in atmosphere, Sun, solar system. Its atomic or particle nature is unknown, yet.

Sure.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Because it is electrically charged, it reacts to highly structured matter, with many layers of various conductivity, it reacts to capacitors. (and living matter with a plenty of cellular walls)

That does not follow.

Premise: it is electrically charged.
Conclusion: it reacts to structured matter.
Non sequitor.

Define structured ('lots' of layers? that's incredibly vague). Suggest a means by which 'structure' influences electric interaction. Then demonstrate this in a repeatable, controlled, peer-reviewed environment.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The basic experiment set up involves building a big room with walls of metal and plastic or paper layers, which is, essentially, a capacitor.

Not really. That would depend on the exact properties of the structure. Plastics are dielectric. Metallic structures are often resonators. Or Faraday cages... But sure, for the sake of argument, let's continue.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  However, this mysterious plasma does not charge the capacitor, it gets caught inside the room. Which suggests the capacitor walls do have some innate charge that is inimical to this plasma - perhaps counteracting its own electric charge, thus slowing it down when it blows in like solar wind, and slowing it down even more when it wants to fly out, thus creating a local concentration of this unidentified plasma.

That would require that it can get in but not out. What is the evidence of this? What is the proposed mechanism?

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  A higher local concentration allows for experimental demonstrations.

Such as... ?

If it's simple enough I'd love to try for myself.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  This concentration does alter physical parameters of living things, water, metals, and measuring instruments. Most notably, it altered the function of a standard neutron detector, which has an isolated chamber similar to the capacitor room. It made it react strongly to these things:

Passive neutron counts like reactor values. Which would in my layman mind suggest that this plasma is atomic in nature and does contain neutrons, or perhaps neutrons hold it in the atomic core of common matter, without our knowledge. The latter would correlate with some other research. It is interesting to compare a typical blue glow of this plasma with the notion of Cherenkov radiation. It anyway goes badly for the safety of nuclear technology and may lead to some changes or additions in particle theory.

I hate to be blunt, but I have to ask: what background do you have in physics?

What you as a self-professed layman think "should" be or "should" happen is utterly inconsequential. One cannot apply macroscopic intuition to a physically extreme scale.

Also: 'plasma'. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Anomalous readings on the charged neutron counter, reacting highly to people, other concentration of plasma, thunderstorms and so on.

Neutron counter and sunspots correlation

If his work is based on Reich, he - at the very least, if he has any honesty - ought to begin with an acknowledgement of the thorough failure of Reich's arguments, and how his differ substantially from cruft debunked 70 years ago.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Good question! This is why I contacted the website author and asked him this personally. By the way, conspiracy is a common practice in world of money and politics. Scientific method can not lie, everyone else can. And there is a lot of money and government in science, it's the fourth economic sector, therefore a lot of corruption. If you believed what Fox news say about stem cell research and evolution, you probably wouldn't fund this research.

Papers marked "it's a conspiracy" will not be marked.

There is most assuredly not a lot of money in obscure theoretical physics research.

I'm not sure if you realize, but most researchers would absolutely love to find the next 'big discovery'.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  - Skeptics are only half-wrong. Much of this research is associated with name of Wilhelm Reich, who has a bad reputation and entertained overly... physiologic and sexualistic theories himself. The New Age community made a circus out of all serious research and skeptical community dragged all of this through the mud, they had a field day in criticizing all remotely connected to this research. They went over the board with criticism into the realm of slander and were greatly successful. There is an evidence of this, skeptical articles based on falsehood and also proper responses and refutations to them, which never got this nearly as much attention.
http://www.orgonelab.org/skeptics.htm

The site also contains links to such nonsense as climate control and "AIDS is not HIV". That does not make the other stuff wrong, but it isn't a good indicator.

(Maybe the distinction between slander and libel is not made in your country. But repeated groundless accusations of same would be barratry if made official...)

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  - This plasma which Reich called orgone behaves in a very counter-intuitive way, which seems to defy mechanistic principles. It passes through walls except highly structured walls or living matter, (or water or metals) which have significant capacitive properties.

Define 'structure'. Also, cell walls are not capacitive.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  In my opinion is obviously mechanistic, but we have to assume that this medium is present all around Earth, Sun and solar system, controlled by their fields, so it obeys a greater dynamics. We must not assume that the space is empty and isolated.
This kind of reasoning comes naturally to various New Agey types, unfortunately.
However, it's all so counter-intuitive, that only those who have a personal experience with this phenomenon, respond to this message reliably. Others need to do their homework and peruse the science.

If it's there it's testable. If it's consistent it's predictable.

If you can demonstrate it there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  - "There are plenty of peer-reviewed papers. Most all of the orgonomic journals, including Reich's original ones, were peer-reviewed. See the on-line Bibliography on Orgonomy, and my own publications list for details:"
http://www.orgonelab.org/bibliog.htm
http://www.orgonelab.org/demeopubs.htm

I'll wait until it's the Physical Review.

A quack reviewed by his peers in quackery (this is hyperbole, lest you think I'm being unduly acerbic) does not constitute peer review. Why has it not appeared in mainstream, reputable journals?

Papers marked "it's a conspiracy" will not be marked.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  - The mainstream media are too biased, they print ridicule and slander from well-organized skeptic clubs, or they print nothing on the topic. The clubs have much greater and more entertaining literary output and it would not be very political to turn a 180 degrees and alienate the skeptical community, or, to give a minority voice a 50 % of space when there is so much similar New Age crap around.

Accusing skeptic organizations of slander seems rather... how shall I say it - slanderous? (well... libelous...)

If a test fails under controlled reproducible circumstances then it fails. If there's one thing James Randi has shown us it's that those who make extraordinary claims are extraordinarily good at creating rationalisations for why they fail so extraordinarily.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  - If you think I am passive aggressive, then the researcher is totally on the edge. Nerves wrecked from the decades of taking crap from people who did not do their homework, yet got all the space in journals and media. He's very old, set in his ways and focused on the work. He's not likely to go into a new campaign to make the journals believe enough to publish the articles. I also see he has some opinions I can not fully agree with, which I see as a sign of long isolation. Remember, he lived through the times when FDA burned Reich's books, got him jailed on a technicality and let him die in jail. History sucks.

That he was treated poorly is not evidence of anything (nor is it of Reich).

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Thanks, I will try to be more careful, but I needed to make clear how serious I am. What I present includes decades of man-hours of scientific work. I spent years arguing and going into internet conflicts, learning then that this is a problem of communication and great assumptions on both sides.

Yes, I have lots of internalized definitions and order in concepts. It corresponds to science, but it originates from my own personal observations. I can not however present these, till we lay down that this phenomenon has electric, plasmatic properties, that react highly with structured materials like living human body. Human body, with the skin and cellular walls, large and active nerve system and blood being pumped all around it like a dynamo, that is the greatest receiver of this mysterious plasma, dwarfed only by a planetary or solar spheres.

Define 'structure'. Define this interaction. Define its mechanism. Define its effects.

Then write up a scientific paper, because if it's true, there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  No conscious assumptions, that is. I've seen that people in personal contact understand better than when arguing over the internet. I needed to be a little passive aggressive to get your attention...

You already had my attention; that was just being rude.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  ... because it drops and it goes back to the things you know, instead of paying attention to new information. It's time to get professional, even in face of some seemingly New Agey presentations and I know that's not easy. It can be painful to read something we deeply disagree with.

Tell me when you get a good basic understanding of this Reich's orgone stuff, especially that it has
- electric, or electro-static properties and behavior corresponding to plasma dynamics. I have another, independent research to back it up, that the electro-static charge plays a primary role.
http://www.miroslavprovod.com/
I don't believe it is purely electro-static, there seems to be a new order of matter involved, but I would go as far as claiming that it is impossible to understand fully the physics of electrostatic charge without knowing the role of this plasmatic matter.

- deep affinity with living organisms, (due to mentioned reasons) and with some natural structures, like river meanders, underground water streams, atmosphere, weather and so on, obviously because of their isolative, capacitive and perhaps even indirectly inductive properties, that induce more electric charge with ambient magnetic fields.

Capacitance and inductance are literally opposite properties so far as circuit dynamics (ie charge flow) are concerned.

Charge is conserved. More or less free charge may be produced via energy input.

(27-08-2013 04:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  - potentially great historical, cultural and religious implications, which will test your woo filter.

Then I can move on to show how this is relevant to various health and religious practices. You are probably not a social scientist, so this may not come to you naturally, but I believe an inter-disciplinary research is the key to the topic. Imagine it like that, there were centuries and millennia of people experimenting with their body and consciousness and they wrote down their findings in a very nebulous, but still identifiable way. This is just a partial point, next we will focus on modern scientific discoveries in plasma dynamics, which confirm it.

Assume I believe it all for the sake of argument.

What are the consequences?

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-09-2013, 09:12 PM
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
This argument is simply fascinating. Its completely over my head but a wonderful read nontheless.

Your citizen Atheist
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-09-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(02-09-2013 09:12 PM)sequoyah Wrote:  This argument is simply fascinating. Its completely over my head but a wonderful read nonetheless.

Well, I'm... glad you think so, I guess.

It's long since left behind anything to do with pantheism...

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-09-2013, 10:40 PM
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
[Image: 1282786204310.jpg?1318992465]

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(02-09-2013 09:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-09-2013 09:12 PM)sequoyah Wrote:  This argument is simply fascinating. Its completely over my head but a wonderful read nonetheless.



Well, I'm... glad you think so, I guess.

It's long since left behind anything to do with pantheism...

Thats fine threads tends to do that from time to time.

Your citizen Atheist
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-09-2013, 03:34 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:38 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Dissecting Pantheism/Panentheism
(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Assume I believe it all for the sake of argument.

What are the consequences?
Enormous. Another scientific revolution comparable to information age, that also changes the way we see the world, the culture and ourselves. Some kind of pantheism will prevail in society, because there will be a measurable and meaningful interaction between people's nervous system, planetary electro-magnetic fields, fields of the sun, other planets and even extra-solar influences. Sort of a cosmic weather, if you want. Most of arguments for or against God will lose meaning. "God" will become a technical term, a great electric system of which we are parts as well. Plus great advances in medicine, psychology and so on, the usual stuff. It won't look much like God at first, but as the scientists fill in the blanks, religions will shake in their base.

Imagine it like the bad news - the woo is true. The good news - science can face it on its own territory and win.

Now, if for the sake of argument you want to agree, read through this, to get the point of all this pantheism.
http://www.darkplasmatheory.blogspot.cz/

After you read through that website, compare the pictures to this video.
http://youtu.be/yhKB-VxJWpg?t=10m57s
You will see that these circular structures in human body (supposedly made of WIMP plasma) correspond not only to fields in the universe, but also to structures generated by plasma jet discharge. If you do your homework thoroughly, you'll see how it all fits together.


(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That does not follow.

Premise: it is electrically charged.
Conclusion: it reacts to structured matter.
Non sequitor.

Define structured ('lots' of layers? that's incredibly vague). Suggest a means by which 'structure' influences electric interaction. Then demonstrate this in a repeatable, controlled, peer-reviewed environment.
Which structure? A living cellular structure. Haven't you clicked on a single link that I posted?

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That would require that it can get in but not out. What is the evidence of this? What is the proposed mechanism?
What about you read the papers, watch the videos and so on?
I don't know the mechanism, my guess is, it's like a snowdrift. It can get both in and out, but every passage through the special layered walls slows it down. So what gets in, gets out even slower, concentrating inside, being constantly replenished from the outside.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:   
Such as... ?

If it's simple enough I'd love to try for myself.
http://www.orgonelab.org/Report2006.htm
The demonstrated experimental anomalies include replication of Reich's thermal anomaly, that was supposedly disproven by Einstein. Einstein, as I heard, confirmed the effect, but proposed heat convection of air to explain it, thus dismissed the results. Reich offered another experimental setup, which would exclude this possibility, but there is no sign Einstein actually bothered to repeat the experiment. So this is a modern re-edition of the experiment, with modern technology and much success. This is the paper. Read it.

You will find it all here, all sorts of gathered evidence in favor of this theory.
http://www.waterjournal.org/uploads/vol3...-DeMeo.pdf
You can find more evidence which JDM or WR did not know about, at http://www.miroslavprovod.com

If you want to try it for yourself, you can either build the accumulator room (there's a plenty of instructions and materials for sale at the website), or you can buy the measuring instrument for a simple and straightforward proof of vital aura in living things.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:    I hate to be blunt, but I have to ask: what background do you have in physics?

What you as a self-professed layman think "should" be or "should" happen is utterly inconsequential. One cannot apply macroscopic intuition to a physically extreme scale.
What background in physics? High school with electrical engineering subjects and years of ocassional Wikipedia binges and Google hunts. I use my senses to tell what to look for. I can feel some of the effects on vital fields directly, empirically. It's inborn sensitivity enhanced through years of meditation. I don't do anything, I just make personal observations and then look for corresponding observations on the net, made by scientists. It's not my fault they're usually fringe scientists.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:    Also: 'plasma'. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I mean it as plasma consisting of weakly interacting particles. For all practical purposes it behaves like plasma, but it interacts only weakly with most matter, so it doesn't usually... you know, burn things or emit visible radiation. But when it does, living matter is usually involved. More at
http://www.darkplasmatheory.blogspot.cz/

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If his work is based on Reich, he - at the very least, if he has any honesty - ought to begin with an acknowledgement of the thorough failure of Reich's arguments, and how his differ substantially from cruft debunked 70 years ago.
Maybe he did, but what you mean by these debunked arguments was blown out of proportion by the prolific woo and New Age conspiracy community of America.
http://www.orgonelab.org/orgonenonsense.htm

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I'm not sure if you realize, but most researchers would absolutely love to find the next 'big discovery'.
Yes, big discovery. One of biases people have is the bias that size matters. Size and energy input. The funding committees prefer gigantic projects like LHC and hot fusion reactors. If it doesn't pack a wallop of a few gigaelectronvolts, it can't work. The big energy bill at least looks like something is being done. Same effect as war on drugs, if it doesn't work, just put more money and energy into it. That's politics, it gets even into science. I don't know much about physics, but I know politics when I see it.
I can detect more dark matter by the virtue of being alive than an underground laboratory can detect in the isolated, lifeless fluid chamber.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The site also contains links to such nonsense as climate control and "AIDS is not HIV". That does not make the other stuff wrong, but it isn't a good indicator.
I don't agree with everything he says, only with what I have confirmed by other research, which is pretty much the electro-static and electro-magnetic field stuff. I don't know what to think about his other projects. I just ignore that. This is just the first part of my argument, a basic confirmation that there is some unknown stuff in space, that interacts with life and is measurable by electrical instruments. It interacts with almost everything and we don't know just what exactly. So let's focus only on the most obvious effects. Which are in the Water journal issue, which you should have read by now.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Define 'structure'. Also, cell walls are not capacitive.

Structure? Regular differences in dielectric constant throughout the material?
All right, something about the cells, or perhaps the whole living tissue made of cells, interacts with this strange plasmatic substance.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If it's there it's testable. If it's consistent it's predictable.

If you can demonstrate it there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.
C'mon! You think if I can build an accumulator room, put in a Ludlum neutron counter, wait a few years, compare the data with solar flares, then I can win a Nobel prize?
Well, DeMeo just did it. Why doesn't he have a Nobel prize? And how would I avoid accusations of plagiatorship?

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I'll wait until it's the Physical Review.

A quack reviewed by his peers in quackery (this is hyperbole, lest you think I'm being unduly acerbic) does not constitute peer review. Why has it not appeared in mainstream, reputable journals?

Papers marked "it's a conspiracy" will not be marked.
Because the world is full of jerks who say "I'll wait until it's the Physical Review." Including the Physical Review reviewers.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Accusing skeptic organizations of slander seems rather... how shall I say it - slanderous? (well... libelous...)
Judge for yourself. http://www.orgonelab.org/skeptics.htm

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Define 'structure'. Define this interaction. Define its mechanism. Define its effects.

Then write up a scientific paper, because if it's true, there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.
These papers are already written. The problem isn't lack of papers, it's people who can't read them unless they are in Physics Review.

(02-09-2013 07:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Capacitance and inductance are literally opposite properties so far as circuit dynamics (ie charge flow) are concerned.

Charge is conserved. More or less free charge may be produced via energy input.
Well, I don't care about that. I use my sensory perception to look for this bio-plasma, not my knowledge of physics.

Please do not reply, unless you have read through the links.

If I should argue for pantheism, I'm going to do it thoroughly - the universe is made of energy in some form and I post the evidence in favor of our body's energetic interactions with the universe.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: