Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
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14-06-2017, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2017 11:33 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
(14-06-2017 09:13 AM)Demolition Man Wrote:  "God is not the same TYPE of being as a human. He is not of the same order as if he is subjected to the same standards of morality that we are. We aren't on the same playing field".

"Our moral compasses are flawed and cannot call into question the actions/character of a perfectly moral being".

"God created us so he has ownership of us. He can do whatever he wills to whomever he wills".

The above-quoted rationalizations are typically invoked as "explainations" for how God can be considered perfectly moral when there is obviously so much gratuitous suffering in the world. However, the next question to ask when they are invoked is how theists can justify worshipping such a God if they can't even understand his actions. Theists not only have to make the case that God exists, but that he is worthy of worship. If he isn't, he should be ignored or opposed. At that point, a simpler explanation is that such a perfectly moral being likely doesn't exist.
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14-06-2017, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2017 12:37 PM by sea_tiger.)
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
To me OP sounds like:
__
God is like a child and we are his mud dolls.He can play with the mud dolls as much as he likes.He can play house with them.He can break them in a brutal way.No matter what absurd laws and punishments he makes the dolls go through the God cannot be blamed.His whims and wants are the moral commandments to the dolls.He decides the rules on how to play (not us dolls) .Even if the dolls think of god as moral or immoral it doesn't stick to God.He has power/authority over us so he can judge us. We cannot judge him because we have no power/authority over him.
__

It seems like an impregnable fortress.How am I supposed to criticize/understand/question God when my ability to criticize/understand/question him is not allowed/justified?
Even Pascal's Wager is easier to deal with than this.
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14-06-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
(14-06-2017 09:13 AM)Demolition Man Wrote:  "God is not the same TYPE of being as a human. He is not of the same order as if he is subjected to the same standards of morality that we are. We aren't on the same playing field".

"Our moral compasses are flawed and cannot call into question the actions/character of a perfectly moral being".

How do they know God is the good one and Satan the evil one? Drinking Beverage

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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14-06-2017, 12:42 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
(14-06-2017 12:14 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  To me OP sounds like:
__
God is like a child and we are his mud dolls.He can play with the mud dolls as much as he likes.He can play house with them.He can break them in a brutal way.No matter what absurd laws and punishments he makes the dolls go through the God cannot be blamed.His whims and wants are the moral commandments to the dolls.He decides the rules on how to play (not us dolls) .Even if the dolls think of god as moral or immoral it doesn't stick to God.He has power/authority over us so he can judge us. We cannot judge him because we have no power/authority over him.

You're not far wrong there.

A Christian music group, Hillsong, does a little ditty called The Potter's Hand.

Some lyrics:
Quote:Take me, and mold me
Use me, fill me
I give my life to my Potter's hands
Hold me, You guide me
Lead me, walk beside me
I give my life to my Potter's hand

Give Him everything
Give Him everything
Right now, give Him everything
Everything
Give Him everything
Lord, I give it all
To You

It's a reference to Isaiah 64:8 Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

and Jeremiah 18:6 “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.
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14-06-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
So we know what is good because god tells us what is good, and good is only determined by what god tells us. His commands are good and his laws are good. And the bible says all good comes from god and only god is good.

But.....god has broken his own "good" laws and commandments himself, and god has said if anyone breaks any of the laws they are not good. So he isn't good by his own standard, which is supposed to be the only standard. But....now god can do whatever he wants, including breaking said "good" laws, because he's god. But.....the bible says god cannot sin, but the definition of sin is breaking god's commandments....but it isn't a sin if god does it, only humans? But....we're supposed to strive to live perfect like god, and the defintion of perfect is not sinning, i.e. not breaking any law or commandment.....but....god broke them so he can't be perfect but he is perfect because reasons......

Hmmmm....it's like the whole thing is.....convoluted bullshit.
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14-06-2017, 06:07 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
> Any claim which must be shielded from rational scrutiny is not worth believing.

> Any god who must be shielded from rational scrutiny is not worth belief or worship. Consider
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14-06-2017, 07:51 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
(14-06-2017 09:13 AM)Demolition Man Wrote:  Hello all,

I am new to this forum and would like to ask some questions:

One of my biggest problems in my former Christian/theistic beliefs (and any religion with the claim of a purported "sovereign" deity) is the teaching that a god's actions cannot be subjected to human moral scrutiny. You all know this is especially popular in Calvinist circles. It often comes up to me as one of the below from defenders of Divine Command Theory type thinking:

"God is not the same TYPE of being as a human. He is not of the same order as if he is subjected to the same standards of morality that we are. We aren't on the same playing field".

"Our moral compasses are flawed and cannot call into question the actions/character of a perfectly moral being".

"God created us so he has ownership of us. He can do whatever he wills to whomever he wills".

Now, I know all of the above are wrong and morally reprehensible, but it does not appear that I'm able to articulate in a convincing enough manner to theists why. I simply know there is a major problem with the concept of a being whose actions/character cannot be questioned regardless of whatever "order" they may be, or that there is even such an acceptable claim that there is an "order" higher than us, at all. So I ask: can any of you advise on any good resources or books that may articulate why these concepts are wrong, or perhaps your own way of saying how these concepts are wrong? I appreciate your consideration and this forum!

--Demolition Man

Ok, so here's an example of our "limited" human morality-





And here's an example of god's morality:

[Image: dont-masturbate-jesus-sees-all-2726199.png]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-06-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
Thanks for the responses, everyone! Once I get a moment, I will be reading through your responses in depth and see if I can use some of it when I debate this stuff with theists. And just to let you know, as predicted, the debate I had today with a Christian did end up feeling like I was talking to a wall that wouldn't listen, ha ha. Oh well. I certainly felt like I presented my case strongly, anyway.
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14-06-2017, 09:06 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
Dammit! I keep reading the thread title as Divine Comedy Theory.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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14-06-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: Divine Command Theory/God's Morality Can't Be Questioned
I would invite such a person to define what morality actually is, in a non-circular way. Chances are, they can't.

What would you expect a being with suspicious intentions to say? "I'm good. But I don't have to say what that even means. I just am. Don't ask any questions. Don't think about how my actions look."

Well, that would be a really stupid being with suspicious intentions, to make it so obvious. What would such a being say? "I know everything. But don't test me. Don't question me..."

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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