Divine justice and suffering...
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04-10-2016, 08:53 AM
Divine justice and suffering...
This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?
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04-10-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

I tend to use the analogy of an armed rapist, when faced with Christians who claim that the choice is between accepting God's "mercy" or going to hell for my "sins".

The rapist says, "I love you, and I want you to love me. It's your fault that I am in love with you, since you are naturally so attractive. If you just obey me and let me have sex with you, I will share my billion-dollar fortune with you. If you don't let me, of course, then I'll have to shoot you with this gun. But it's your free choice."

The Christian version of God says, "I love you, and I want you to love me. It's your fault that you can't get into heaven, since you are naturally a sinner. If you just worship and obey me, I will forgive your sins and let you into heaven. If you don't worship and obey me, of course, then I'll have to send you to the torture-place that I created for all eternity. But it's your free choice."

No matter how they try to phrase it, they can't get around some basic facts that are made by their own claim about this being they call "God":

1) This "God" of theirs invented the concept of "sin", which is defined as things that "God" doesn't want us doing, to the point that it creates some sort of obligation or debt to this being.

2) This "God" of theirs invented everything, which would include the Place of Torment that they call "Hell", reserved for people who don't pay obeisance to the creator of this place.

3) This "God" of theirs claims to offer us a "free choice" to obey or not, but the debt/obligation is created at rhetorical gunpoint, since the options are "obey or burn".

There is simply no difference that I can determine between this "God" of theirs and a rapist or mugger. The morality is precisely the same.

A rapist who agrees not to kill you if you just obey him is not "merciful". Period.

Either you freely agree to have sex with someone or you do not. The moment rewards or punishments enter into the equation, it is moral depravity-- either prostitution (if you take a reward for services rendered) or rape (if you render said services under threat).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-10-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
I should add that I don't have any moral issues with prostitution, so long as it is 100% voluntary on the part of the sex worker. Likewise, if Christians want to believe that there's not really a Hell, and that the choice is "worship and get your soul sent to heaven, don't worship and die permanently like every other animal on earth", then I have no issues with them. Many of them do think that... salvation is a bit like Enlightenment, in which one's soul is spiritually elevated from the natural world.

Makes no difference to me, if they think that; I'm already an atheist, and already think I'm just gonna die and be no more.

But from your description, the Christians with whom you are debating have the other type of "God" concept in mind.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-10-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... [...]

It's a difficult—and ultimately unwinnable—debate to be having with theists, from an atheist's viewpoint. In the end, you'll only be wasting your time and effort. I stopped having these sorts of abstract debates with theists decades ago—I much prefer discussing the genuine, natural sciences with my other more enlightened atheist mates.

The mere fact that their purported god not only lets a small child contract leukemia in the first place, but then does nothing at all to prevent that child dying is the only evidence needed to prove that this imaginary god is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. And IF he existed, then he'd be capricious, callous, uncaring, and totally egocentric.

Ask them if they believe that Allah, Wallungunder, Brahman, or Tabaldak are equally "just and all-merciful". And if they disagree, nail them to the wall and ask them why specifically.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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04-10-2016, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2016 09:43 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

The basic mistake these theodicies make is to link suffering to the sin/Adam myth, suffering existed long before humans walked the Earth, there's an entire field of paleopathology devoted to analyzing the various diseases ancient animals had. One of many examples was Spinolestes who had well-documented dermatophytosis when it lived around 125 mya. , quite a bit before Adam's fable.

Science disproves biblical nonsense. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-10-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...



Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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04-10-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...




But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-10-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
The logic of Christians is comparable to the wisdom of The Three Stooges...................


....

So don't expect things to make much sense....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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04-10-2016, 11:30 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

When it's a "mystery just like the trinity is a mystery", you know it's meaningless drivel, (and they can't explain it, yet feel the need to, as they know it's bullshit).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-10-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

My response is "It's all bollocks. It's made up crap and I can't be fussed to have an argument about nothing."

Theology is the Seinfeld of subjects. It's about nothing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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