Divine justice and suffering...
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04-10-2016, 12:47 PM
Divine justice and suffering...
There is no sense in responding to such idiocy. God is like Soviet Union - always good just like SU was always progressive and no argument will sway believer.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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04-10-2016, 01:24 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2016 01:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

When it's a "mystery just like the trinity is a mystery", you know it's meaningless drivel, (and they can't explain it, yet feel the need to, as they know it's bullshit).

Speaking of "the trinity is a mystery" ... you can (they can) actually read the proceedings of the church councils, where they cooked up/made up a lot of their doctrines. (Forham University has them online). One of the more enlightening "invention events" is where they discuss the doctrine of the second person of the trinity, (and talked about the "filioque" clause in the creed, and then argued about it for centuries). They knew it fundamentally made no sense AT ALL, so they argued about how to 'say it" in a way that seemed plausible. It's hilarious.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-10-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 01:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  When it's a "mystery just like the trinity is a mystery", you know it's meaningless drivel, (and they can't explain it, yet feel the need to, as they know it's bullshit).

Speaking of "the trinity is a mystery" ... you can (they can) actually read the proceedings of the church councils, where they cooked up/made up a lot of their doctrines. (Forham University has them online). One of the more enlightening "invention events" is where they discuss the doctrine of the second person of the trinity, (and talked about the "filioque" clause in the creed, and then argued about it for centuries). They knew it fundamentally made no sense AT ALL, so they argued about how to 'say it" in a way that seemed plausible. It's hilarious.

Had to look up "filioque", so one early church bishop said this about the Trinity:

Gregory of Nyssa stated:

The one (i.e. the Son) is directly from the First and the other (i.e., the Spirit) is through the one who is directly from the First with the result that the Only-begotten remains the Son and does not negate the Spirit's being from the Father since the middle position of the Son both protects His distinction as Only-begotten and does not exclude the Spirit from His natural relation to the Father.

So that sounds a lot like the Nazis getting zapped in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Image: 055f5099-2b73-455e-9a5e-ee275b0d2966.jpg]

At least they borrowed from the first movie. Facepalm

Or maybe they got it from Abbot and Costello:

[Image: maxresdefault.jpg]

IDK..... Huh

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-10-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

From the psychopathic perspective killing others is both just (they deserve to die) and merciful (I give you mercy). ... I mean hypothetically speaking.

#sigh
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16-10-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  This is a debate that I had recently with my Catholic friends... They say that God is both all just and all-merciful... But that doesn't make sense to me... But they say it's a mystery just like the Holy Trinity is a mystery... But now some people are saying that cause Justice is now not punitive restorative... Go figure??? And did they also say that suffering in the world is due to and because of original sin... You people logic reason and Common Sense or what??? And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?

They first need to prove that a God exists, then once they do that they can talk about its attributes and how they know what they are.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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16-10-2016, 09:11 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
I would tell them the trinity and God are not really a mystery at all *if* they learn some actual biblical history, learn about the culture of the people who created this deity, and learn a bit about the brain and why people are apt to believe in the imaginary things they do such as gods. Mystery solved Wink

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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16-10-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
The other thing you could do is tell them that prior to discussing their religion, you would like to discuss the beliefs of the cargo cult. When they say the beliefs of the cargo cult are absurd, you can mention: "And a magical being that no one has seen creating man (out of clay) and woman (out of rib), the garden of Eden, and a talking snake not absurd." Got it Thumbsup At least the people of the cargo cult actually see a plane.




"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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16-10-2016, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2016 09:31 AM by jennybee.)
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
As for the just and merciful comment re: God. I usually point them to the passages in the Bible where God kills a baby (2 Samuel 12:14-18) and has David's wives raped by his son in front of all of Israel for *David's* sins (2 Samuel 12:11-12, 16:22). Not just or merciful.

Sorry for consecutive posts, I had a lot of coffee Hobo Tongue

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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29-06-2017, 04:28 PM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?
If God isn't just, he isn't good.
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02-07-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: Divine justice and suffering...
(29-06-2017 04:28 PM)serpentdove Wrote:  
(04-10-2016 08:53 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  And how do you respond to the justice and mercy of God apologetics?
If God isn't just, he isn't good.

God isn't just. That's already been established. If you take the parable of Noah's Ark seriously, it's abundantly clear: this God character wiped out the entire population of the earth including children in utero.

That makes God an abortionist. And, in most Christian circles, abortion is unjust.

There are many, many more examples of God being unjust. How about the bears killing children because they made fun of Elisha's bald head? Is that just? Of course not.

I have more. Plenty more.

Therefore, God is unjust, and as a result, not good.
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