Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
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05-03-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(05-03-2014 04:48 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 10:15 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Good and Evil were in conflict. Evil overpowered Good and cast Good into a place called hell. Good needed a lot of attention from other good beings in order to remain strong. So Evil decided to mislead the good humans by pretending to be good himself and convincing the good humans to give him all the attention instead; thus keeping Good in a weakened state.
If Evil and Good are powered by evil and good humans respectively, then the fact that Evil overpowered Good indicates that humanity is overall evil. Is this really the message you want to send? I thought you guys were usually pro-human.
I don't know why I should do this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (just this once) and assume you really missed the point. The intent isn't to send any message with that story (which, by the way, you misrepresented). That story is just one plausible alternative to the usual theist story. It doesn't have to be the story. The point is there are many possible stories that fit as well as any theist story (maybe even better) with no way to tell which, if any, is correct. Therefore, purely faith-based beliefs and actions are worthless and potentially dangerous.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2014, 08:25 AM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(05-03-2014 10:28 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't know why I should do this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (just this once) and assume you really missed the point. The intent isn't to send any message with that story
That may not be the intent, but the story does include that message.
Quote:(which, by the way, you misrepresented).
I think my interpretation was reasonable. It was a brief story and maybe you didn't flesh it out enough, but my conclusion is supportable from what you presented.
Quote:That story is just one plausible alternative to the usual theist story. It doesn't have to be the story. The point is there are many possible stories that fit as well as any theist story (maybe even better) with no way to tell which, if any, is correct. Therefore, purely faith-based beliefs and actions are worthless and potentially dangerous.
I have an easy way of telling that this one is unlikely to be correct - you admitted that you just made it up to make a point.
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06-03-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(06-03-2014 08:25 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 10:28 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't know why I should do this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (just this once) and assume you really missed the point. The intent isn't to send any message with that story
That may not be the intent, but the story does include that message.
Really? Where exactly in my story did it say Evil was powered by humans?

(06-03-2014 08:25 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:(which, by the way, you misrepresented).
I think my interpretation was reasonable. It was a brief story and maybe you didn't flesh it out enough, but my conclusion is supportable from what you presented.
No, it isn't. The answer to my question above is "it doesn't". That's one reason your conclusion isn't supportable. But, even if it did say humans powered Evil, your conclusion that this makes humanity overall evil still doesn't follow because humans would be doing so while believing they are doing good, not evil.

(06-03-2014 08:25 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:That story is just one plausible alternative to the usual theist story. It doesn't have to be the story. The point is there are many possible stories that fit as well as any theist story (maybe even better) with no way to tell which, if any, is correct. Therefore, purely faith-based beliefs and actions are worthless and potentially dangerous.
I have an easy way of telling that this one is unlikely to be correct - you admitted that you just made it up to make a point.
So much for the benefit of the doubt... Drinking Beverage

Thanks by the way. Every time you fail to explain how someone being told both stories are "true" could conclude which, if either, is the "real truth", you support my main point.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(06-03-2014 11:59 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Really? Where exactly in my story did it say Evil was powered by humans?
It doesn't. It says that Good is powered by good humans. Absent information to the contrary it's reasonable to conclude that Evil is powered by evil humans.
Quote:No, it isn't. The answer to my question above is "it doesn't". That's one reason your conclusion isn't supportable. But, even if it did say humans powered Evil, your conclusion that this makes humanity overall evil still doesn't follow because humans would be doing so while believing they are doing good, not evil.
Not prior to the initial overthrow, which is the part I referenced.

Another point - when Evil gets to power why the charade to keep good humans distracted instead of, oh, maybe just...killing the good humans? It is Evil with a capital E after all. Consider

(06-03-2014 08:25 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Thanks by the way. Every time you fail to explain how someone being told both stories are "true" could conclude which, if either, is the "real truth", you support my main point.
That's not what I was focusing on, but see above - Evil would just kill the good humans.
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06-03-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(05-03-2014 10:15 AM)Impulse Wrote:  However, Evil made mistakes and failed to completely hide his true nature. Some of the stories written about him told of his angry, jealous, murdering, raping ways, among others. Soon, some of the good people were confused about what their "good" god was telling them to do. Some broke away from the original religion and formed their own versions that felt more comfortable to them. Evil didn't care as long as the attention wasn't being given to the real Good. So Evil did nothing further and simply allowed the good humans to confuse themselves. And he laughed to himself because those good humans would excuse anything - even defend evil itself - because they had faith. Stupid naive humans. Faith would keep the deception intact. And so he just sat back, watched, and smiled a content smile. Evil_monster
lol reminds of this video


Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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06-03-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
Option 1: Address the stated intent of the OP and discuss whether or not this alternate story is as feasible or reasonable as the story put forth by the Bible.

Option 2: Nitpick whether or not the story paints humans as the source of evil.

Hmmmm.... which would be more productive or on topic?
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06-03-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(06-03-2014 12:20 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Option 1: Address the stated intent of the OP and discuss whether or not this alternate story is as feasible or reasonable as the story put forth by the Bible.

Option 2: Nitpick whether or not the story paints humans as the source of evil.
Done both actually. Re: option 1 I noted that Evil could just kill good humans rather than getting into the big charade to distract them.
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06-03-2014, 12:27 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(06-03-2014 12:25 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 12:20 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Option 1: Address the stated intent of the OP and discuss whether or not this alternate story is as feasible or reasonable as the story put forth by the Bible.

Option 2: Nitpick whether or not the story paints humans as the source of evil.
Done both actually. Re: option 1 I noted that Evil could just kill good humans rather than getting into the big charade to distract them.

Just as god could destroy satan and hell and reveal himself to everybody and not just bunch of bigots in the desert of iron age palestine.
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06-03-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(06-03-2014 12:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 11:59 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Really? Where exactly in my story did it say Evil was powered by humans?
It doesn't. It says that Good is powered by good humans. Absent information to the contrary it's reasonable to conclude that Evil is powered by evil humans.
No, you don't get to insert something random into an absence of information anymore than you get to do so with a god existing.

(06-03-2014 12:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:No, it isn't. The answer to my question above is "it doesn't". That's one reason your conclusion isn't supportable. But, even if it did say humans powered Evil, your conclusion that this makes humanity overall evil still doesn't follow because humans would be doing so while believing they are doing good, not evil.
Not prior to the initial overthrow, which is the part I referenced.

Another point - when Evil gets to power why the charade to keep good humans distracted instead of, oh, maybe just...killing the good humans? It is Evil with a capital E after all. Consider
Where in my story did I describe "prior to the overthrow"?

As for your other point, in your version of God, God could just kill all the evil so why didn't he? You can accept somehow that he didn't, but now call out Evil in my story for not squashing all the good. Consider

(06-03-2014 12:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Thanks by the way. Every time you fail to explain how someone being told both stories are "true" could conclude which, if either, is the "real truth", you support my main point.
That's not what I was focusing on, but see above - Evil would just kill the good humans.
See above.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-03-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Divine role reversal and the problem with faith
(06-03-2014 12:55 PM)Impulse Wrote:  No, you don't get to insert something random into an absence of information anymore than you get to do so with a god existing.
I didn't insert something random. It's a logical conclusion, as explained. You can add to the story, explaining why Good needs the attention of Good people for power, but Evil doesn't need attention if you want.

Quote:Where in my story did I describe "prior to the overthrow"?

As for your other point, in your version of God, God could just kill all the evil so why didn't he? You can accept somehow that he didn't, but now call out Evil in my story for not squashing all the good. Consider
God explains it in Romans 9. You don't. Smartass
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