Divorce and Prenups
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18-11-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
(18-11-2015 12:08 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The divorce rate is what? 50%?
It's realistic to look at all the possible outcomes, we put a lot of thought into all major life decisions such as buying a car or house and other things so why not marriage?

You can't tell what people are gonna like down the road. You and your partner might just simply drift apart and mutually decide to divorce or you might have a massive spat and it might break up nastily.

I really don't see the harm in being realistic. You don't get house insurance because you know or want your house to burn down, you do it because it's a possibility and you want cover in case that horrible thing happens.

A car or a house is not a person. A relationship is not property. Well, for some people it may be, but are we really talking about that kind of people?

Yes, divorce rates are high, but you know what you can do about that instead of prenups? Think it over before getting married. The reason divorce rates are so high is because people think they must get married and because they always seem to think they have found the one.
there is no such thing as "the one"

Some people need prenups I guess, sure. What I'm saying is that prenups wouldn't be needed as much if people didn't have that insane masochistic urge to get married.

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18-11-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
Again, you don't know what people are gonna be like 5-10-15 years down the road.
They might change, you might change. You can only think about it so much, at the end of the day you're only going off of what you've seen so far. It's too 'fairy tale' to think 'happily ever after' is always attainable.

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18-11-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
(17-11-2015 10:01 PM)julep Wrote:  ...I would never agree to enter one, and it would feel to me as though there were trust and power issues in play that would make me reluctant to continue the relationship in any form.

(18-11-2015 05:51 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  ... I don't understand the logic of "I love you and I want to spend my life with you, but in case things go wrong, I really want to keep my money." You're basically telling the person you love that you think there's a chance they may turn into a horrible person in the future.

That goes both ways, you know.

"What? You only want to be with me if I guarantee you at least half of my current and future possessions if you break up with me for any reason whatsoever? I thought you loved me for me..." :'(

Seriously though, there is a chance they (or you) may turn into a horrible person in the future. We see it all the time. If the failure rate of marriage was 2% this would be a different conversation. But when 40 - 50% of first marriages in the U.S. end in divorce (the divorce rate of subsequent marriages in even higher), then it's irresponsible for two people who are considering a commitment as serious as marriage with very real risks if it doesn't work out to not set aside Disney for a few minutes and deal with cold, hard reality like adults.

And like I tried point out before, it's not about one person trying to keep all the money. It's about coming to an agreement that both people consider fair. So I don't think a prenup itself should be a warning sign (if anything it's a sign of maturity), but if during the course of negotiations it becomes clear that one person is a greedy asshole that wants to use their money to control an manipulate the other person or that one person is a gold digger who wants to win the marriage lotto even if the relationship only lasts 6 months then that might tell you something about wether or not you want to get married at all.

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18-11-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
(18-11-2015 12:20 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  A car or a house is not a person. A relationship is not property. Well, for some people it may be, but are we really talking about that kind of people?

Yes, divorce rates are high, but you know what you can do about that instead of prenups? Think it over before getting married. The reason divorce rates are so high is because people think they must get married and because they always seem to think they have found the one.
there is no such thing as "the one"

Some people need prenups I guess, sure. What I'm saying is that prenups wouldn't be needed as much if people didn't have that insane masochistic urge to get married.
I both agree and disagree. I don't necessarily think marriage, especially as it is commonly defined in the US, is a necessary or inevitable thing (I've talked about this with my girl). I think this social tradition has its roots and its uses and it just kind of is what it is. Marriage (the concept) has its flaws, but it also has many great aspects as well. I personally think the good aspects outweigh the flaws.

I also think most people rush to get married, and that probably is a factor in the high divorce rate. However given that I want to get married one day I have to consider the outcomes. A magical, "Well I love her and she loves me so there is no way we will ever grow apart" answer to the reality that IS divorce just doesn't do it for me. When I was a kid I thought that, especially with my first loves. But now I really see that anything is possible. If marriage really were "till death do us part" then there would be no reason for prenups. But if that were true, divorce wouldn't exist, so obviously it is NOT true. And I don't think "till death do us part" is a healthy attitude towards any relationship. Staying in a dysfunctional or abusive relationship just because you, at one time, thought it was going to be a lifetime of love and happiness isn't healthy or right.

I grew up in a household where I spent most of my childhood wishing my parents would get divorced, so maybe I look at it differently. Not that I imagine my future anything like that, I'm just saying, the possibility of NEEDING to get out of a marriage by either side exists, therefor some sort of plan for that possibility is a wise move.

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18-11-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
I'm just going to re-highlight this part because it is very important and possibly overlooked by many.

(18-11-2015 12:30 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  it's not about one person trying to keep all the money. It's about coming to an agreement that both people consider fair.

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18-11-2015, 11:41 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
I recently got engaged... These are things I think about. I wonder what my fiancée thinks of prenups. We'll have to have a good chat to weigh the pros and cons. Still not sure how I feel about it.

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19-11-2015, 01:27 AM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
(18-11-2015 12:27 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Again, you don't know what people are gonna be like 5-10-15 years down the road.
They might change, you might change. You can only think about it so much, at the end of the day you're only going off of what you've seen so far. It's too 'fairy tale' to think 'happily ever after' is always attainable.

I never said I think that "happily ever after" is always attainable. Far from it. It is very rarely attainable. That is exactly why I think marriage is silly. Knowing that there's a great chance you're going to break up with this person in a few years and marrying them? Why?

(18-11-2015 12:30 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  That goes both ways, you know.

"What? You only want to be with me if I guarantee you at least half of my current and future possessions if you break up with me for any reason whatsoever? I thought you loved me for me..." :'(

Seriously though, there is a chance they (or you) may turn into a horrible person in the future. We see it all the time. If the failure rate of marriage was 2% this would be a different conversation. But when 40 - 50% of first marriages in the U.S. end in divorce (the divorce rate of subsequent marriages in even higher), then it's irresponsible for two people who are considering a commitment as serious as marriage with very real risks if it doesn't work out to not set aside Disney for a few minutes and deal with cold, hard reality like adults.

And like I tried point out before, it's not about one person trying to keep all the money. It's about coming to an agreement that both people consider fair. So I don't think a prenup itself should be a warning sign (if anything it's a sign of maturity), but if during the course of negotiations it becomes clear that one person is a greedy asshole that wants to use their money to control an manipulate the other person or that one person is a gold digger who wants to win the marriage lotto even if the relationship only lasts 6 months then that might tell you something about wether or not you want to get married at all.

I elaborated a bit on a post later than the one you quoted here, saying that it's not exactly prenups I'm not fond of, but marriage in general. Yes, divorce rates are high, and that is exactly why people need prenups. Because they know that people tend to get divorced. Shouldn't that be incentive enough to think twice before getting married instead of starting signing papers and negotiating?

There's nothing Disney about it. I'm not ever planning to have kids so I have no intention of ever getting married (unless of course a miracle happens and the government decides to help married people) so prenups are useless and irrelevant to me. I repeat that when kids are involved, everything changes. I'm not talking about such cases.

(18-11-2015 12:38 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I both agree and disagree. I don't necessarily think marriage, especially as it is commonly defined in the US, is a necessary or inevitable thing (I've talked about this with my girl). I think this social tradition has its roots and its uses and it just kind of is what it is. Marriage (the concept) has its flaws, but it also has many great aspects as well. I personally think the good aspects outweigh the flaws.

I also think most people rush to get married, and that probably is a factor in the high divorce rate. However given that I want to get married one day I have to consider the outcomes. A magical, "Well I love her and she loves me so there is no way we will ever grow apart" answer to the reality that IS divorce just doesn't do it for me. When I was a kid I thought that, especially with my first loves. But now I really see that anything is possible. If marriage really were "till death do us part" then there would be no reason for prenups. But if that were true, divorce wouldn't exist, so obviously it is NOT true. And I don't think "till death do us part" is a healthy attitude towards any relationship. Staying in a dysfunctional or abusive relationship just because you, at one time, thought it was going to be a lifetime of love and happiness isn't healthy or right.

I grew up in a household where I spent most of my childhood wishing my parents would get divorced, so maybe I look at it differently. Not that I imagine my future anything like that, I'm just saying, the possibility of NEEDING to get out of a marriage by either side exists, therefor some sort of plan for that possibility is a wise move.

Yes, marriage is a tradition of selling your daughter as property and sealing business deals. I honestly don't see anything good about marriage apart from financial benefits perhaps. Depends on the country I guess.

Again, I repeat, I think the solution to financial conflicts is not a prenup, but thinking better before you get married. Marriage is such an outdated concept yet we've all been brainwashed to want it for some reason. Unless you're talking about getting help from the state, I honestly still cannot find anything about marriage that you can't have in a normal relationship (and again I repeat, because people seem to skip parts of what I write, I am not talking about situations with kids).

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19-11-2015, 04:52 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
You really should have a prenup to protect the money that you've earned prior to the marriage. You also need to protect any inheritance money that you may come into in the future.

During the years that she's washing and folding your underwear, emotionally supporting you and raising your children, she should rightly be entitled to her fair share of income earned.
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19-11-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
(19-11-2015 01:27 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  I never said I think that "happily ever after" is always attainable. Far from it. It is very rarely attainable. That is exactly why I think marriage is silly. Knowing that there's a great chance you're going to break up with this person in a few years and marrying them? Why?

Because Girly and Manly didn't realize that the odds were stacked against us and there was a great chance we'd be breaking up in a few years? But that was 30 years ago now. Maybe things have changed.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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19-11-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Divorce and Prenups
We're on your heels Girly, we just celebrated 26 and getting better every day! Yes

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