Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
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25-08-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 08:55 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(24-08-2016 11:06 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Well, see, they have this "get out of jail free" card (at least Catholics do) -- it doesn't matter how many bad things you've done, or how bad they are -- you just go to confession, say a few prayers, and "it's all good". I think having this "easy out" might contribute to their lack of morals. Ironic, isn't it?

Morality can be funny for other Christians though. Some Christians who don't do the confessional thing like the Catholics can go out and kill and eat victims like Jeffrey Dahmer and then "accept Jesus" or "get saved by Jesus" or become a "born again Christian" (pick one of the three) and go on with their lives doing good works but free from sin. So Christianity has a safety net for bad behavior.

Or in the case of my Baptist summer camp when younger, Once Saved Always Saved. The example they used was "Hitler was a Christian, so all those millions of deaths are something he was forgiven of, because he had already accepted Christ. When you get to Heaven, Hitler will be there."

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25-08-2016, 09:10 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 09:06 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 08:55 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Morality can be funny for other Christians though. Some Christians who don't do the confessional thing like the Catholics can go out and kill and eat victims like Jeffrey Dahmer and then "accept Jesus" or "get saved by Jesus" or become a "born again Christian" (pick one of the three) and go on with their lives doing good works but free from sin. So Christianity has a safety net for bad behavior.

Or in the case of my Baptist summer camp when younger, Once Saved Always Saved. The example they used was "Hitler was a Christian, so all those millions of deaths are something he was forgiven of, because he had already accepted Christ. When you get to Heaven, Hitler will be there."

Tell me again, why are you a Christian? Consider

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25-08-2016, 09:13 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 09:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-08-2016 07:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you were twice as smart, you'd still be stupid. How is that for burn?

Not such a burn, just a childish retort. It's what we expect of the forum dunce.
Remind us again ... why are you here ?

BTW, I love Seasame Street. What the fuck is the matter with you. Angel

I learned better morals from PBS kids shows then i ever have from any church

Of course Christians like Morningwood need constant reminders there morally weak and his moral pretensions would not last a week

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26-08-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 09:06 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Or in the case of my Baptist summer camp when younger, Once Saved Always Saved. The example they used was "Hitler was a Christian, so all those millions of deaths are something he was forgiven of, because he had already accepted Christ. When you get to Heaven, Hitler will be there."

Tell me again, why are you a Christian? Consider

Not a Baptist any more at least? Same lesson someone asked with a bit too much interest if they became a serial killer, but accepted Jesus, would they end up in Heaven? And the answer was yes.

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27-08-2016, 02:29 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 04:19 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You've done nothing at all to demonstrate you are nothing more than an average forum shmuck.

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27-08-2016, 02:43 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 11:02 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(24-08-2016 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Why do theists make up the vast majority of the prison population? Guess weekly church reminders don't do too much because atheists make up less than .07 percent of the prison population while the general atheist population is about 10% You'd think the entire population would be atheists because we have no morals....... but nope, no, nada, niet, diddly-do-da-no. Theists make up almost all of the prisoners.

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-ri...its-prison

So..... the population most in need of being reminded not to cheat, steal and murder people is the vey one who are already 'being reminded' in church. Maybe this just isn't the church's strong suit.

The priests were, uh, busy.
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27-08-2016, 04:21 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2016 04:32 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(26-08-2016 11:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Tell me again, why are you a Christian? Consider

Not a Baptist any more at least? Same lesson someone asked with a bit too much interest if they became a serial killer, but accepted Jesus, would they end up in Heaven? And the answer was yes.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but that particular philosophy/theology had nothing to do with why I left the church. Unlike Shai Hulud, I left the religion altogether, while he "merely" changed denominations, which is a much, much bigger deal among Baptists than it may sound to non-religious people. My opposition was to learning literalist fundamentalism was dead-wrong about science, and learning about real Biblical scholarship (from a Catholic Bible-with-study-guide I acquired from my Cajun relatives... mom switched from Catholicism because my dad is SB) that left the things I had been taught in evangelical apologetics laughable... it only sounds reasonable to you if you don't acknowledge scholarship from outside the evangelical's little intellectual-circle-jerk apologetics factories.

But seriously, I don't have an issue with it. The entire point of the religion is that a person does sins which render one unworthy of joining with God, and that one must be absolved of them. Some thing that all sins are equally foul, and some think there are degrees. Either way, those who believe that Baptism and repentance wash it all away must believe that even the worst can be Saved. That includes a person whose heart (mind) once contained an urge to murder, or rape, or whatever else they did that was universally awful (rather than just "it's against my religion" sins, such as sodomy, divorce, and premarital sex).

Regardless of what their sin was, they teach that even the worst person can have their sins "washed away", and enter into heaven. They teach that a person who truly does this will no longer want to do anything but follow the example of Jesus (would that they did!!!) and will no longer commit these sins... any of them. Of course, no one does this successfully, to some degree or other, but the religion teaches that, too. But "even the most evil can be the most holy and truly change" is basically Paul's entire message, and is foundational to Christianity.

"It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all." 1 Timothy 1:15 (NASB)

Edit to Add: By the way, I don't think the doctrines of my Catholic side of the family are any more real than the Baptist ones under which I was raised. I don't think Christianity or salvation can change a heart. But I think it can form a placebo effect in which the person has been convinced that they are different, and that it's okay to struggle against what's wrong with them but to use this meditative method (prayer) to combat and stay "holy", to the point that they really do behave differently than they previously did. And I am all for this. I wholly concur with Gandhi that I'd rather see more Christ-like people than "Christians" any day of the week, so I'd like to see them have more success in that aspect of the faith than in repressing others and lying to their social circles about actual knowledge. If 99% of serial killers accepting Jesus are fake, and one is totally serious about it, and the 100th killer decides not to kill because of a placebo effect from his psychological patch for the guilt centers of his brain trying to spark back on helps them function, I'm all for it.

I just wanted to be fair to the actual claims of Christians. I have been seeing some disturbing mis-characterizations of what the Christians think, recently. I wouldn't let you do it with Muslims and I think we should speak of Christianity more factually... and be more careful about that line. I do wish that Shai Hulud would speak out more when it happens, and/or provide scholarly points on things we might miss on Biblical knowledge and Christian doctrine, rather than caricatures of same.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-08-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(26-08-2016 11:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Tell me again, why are you a Christian? Consider

Not a Baptist any more at least? Same lesson someone asked with a bit too much interest if they became a serial killer, but accepted Jesus, would they end up in Heaven? And the answer was yes.

How is that an answer? Consider

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28-08-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(27-08-2016 04:21 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 11:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Not a Baptist any more at least? Same lesson someone asked with a bit too much interest if they became a serial killer, but accepted Jesus, would they end up in Heaven? And the answer was yes.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but that particular philosophy/theology had nothing to do with why I left the church. Unlike Shai Hulud, I left the religion altogether, while he "merely" changed denominations, which is a much, much bigger deal among Baptists than it may sound to non-religious people. My opposition was to learning literalist fundamentalism was dead-wrong about science, and learning about real Biblical scholarship (from a Catholic Bible-with-study-guide I acquired from my Cajun relatives... mom switched from Catholicism because my dad is SB) that left the things I had been taught in evangelical apologetics laughable... it only sounds reasonable to you if you don't acknowledge scholarship from outside the evangelical's little intellectual-circle-jerk apologetics factories.

I really can't blame you for leaving for that reasoning. It would be dishonest of me to say that I've not considered the same, for similar reasoning. My mother switched to Methodism, which wasn't as big a switch, but it still caused some small waves amongst those who know her. (She had to do a video and a worksheet on John Wesley; for Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, or RCIA, I had to do 9 months of 3 hours per week of Catholic doctrine and dogma...the nuns from Zimbabwe in my home parish love cooking and it was hilarious, every session was pretty much a small banquet of pastries.) Helping a now ex to rediscover her Catholic faith helped me to choose it as well; considering the pillars of the Reformation Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) are both actually not found in scripture. Plus how Luther actually did make certain changes to scripture itself, not in just choosing to go with the non-deuterocanonical works that had settled upon by the Jewish canon by that time, but also things like adding the word "alone", having considered taking out the books of James and Revelation, etc. Plus how pretty much everyone will keep repeating the need for the Sinner's Prayer, when it's nowhere in Scripture, the modern version is almost always a derivative of Billy Graham's from his Crusades, and while people try to lead others to that Sinner's Prayer via what's colloquially called "The Roman Road" through what Saint Paul says in Romans, Paul also says in Philippians 2:12 , "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,." (emphasis mine).

At least you sort of got the circle-jerk apologetics? I was mainly told by clergy in the Baptist church to shut up and believe. Word for word once. That or one guy espoused the "Trail of Blood", where the True Bible was hidden until Luther found it, because the evil Satanic Catholic Church came up with its own Bible. One apologetics thing I did get was an 8 hour seminar on evolution being false, and Creationism being the truth, by Kent Hovind (later thrown in prison for federal tax crimes and obstruction of some sort)...Kent at one point hit me in the head with a stuffed dinosaur while tossing them into the audience, trying to claim something about the weakening of the gravitational field.

Quote:But seriously, I don't have an issue with it. The entire point of the religion is that a person does sins which render one unworthy of joining with God, and that one must be absolved of them. Some thing that all sins are equally foul, and some think there are degrees. Either way, those who believe that Baptism and repentance wash it all away must believe that even the worst can be Saved. That includes a person whose heart (mind) once contained an urge to murder, or rape, or whatever else they did that was universally awful (rather than just "it's against my religion" sins, such as sodomy, divorce, and premarital sex).

Regardless of what their sin was, they teach that even the worst person can have their sins "washed away", and enter into heaven. They teach that a person who truly does this will no longer want to do anything but follow the example of Jesus (would that they did!!!) and will no longer commit these sins... any of them. Of course, no one does this successfully, to some degree or other, but the religion teaches that, too. But "even the most evil can be the most holy and truly change" is basically Paul's entire message, and is foundational to Christianity.

"It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all." 1 Timothy 1:15 (NASB)
Fair summation of things. Though on the Catholic side there's a distinction between mortal and venial sins, which can sound legalistic, but I found refreshing in comparison to "everything is equal". If I, call someone a "fucking idiot" as I did this morning when this guy crossed the double yellow and nearly hit me head on because he was texting, that shouldn't be equivalent to taking a life. But yeah, excellent summation of foundational Christianity. Also you were so going to Hell for being a Southern Baptist ; we all know the true church is the American Baptist Churches, saying no to dirty atheist money for orphans in Oklahoma. Tongue

Quote:Edit to Add: By the way, I don't think the doctrines of my Catholic side of the family are any more real than the Baptist ones under which I was raised. I don't think Christianity or salvation can change a heart. But I think it can form a placebo effect in which the person has been convinced that they are different, and that it's okay to struggle against what's wrong with them but to use this meditative method (prayer) to combat and stay "holy", to the point that they really do behave differently than they previously did. And I am all for this. I wholly concur with Gandhi that I'd rather see more Christ-like people than "Christians" any day of the week, so I'd like to see them have more success in that aspect of the faith than in repressing others and lying to their social circles about actual knowledge. If 99% of serial killers accepting Jesus are fake, and one is totally serious about it, and the 100th killer decides not to kill because of a placebo effect from his psychological patch for the guilt centers of his brain trying to spark back on helps them function, I'm all for it.

I just wanted to be fair to the actual claims of Christians. I have been seeing some disturbing mis-characterizations of what the Christians think, recently. I wouldn't let you do it with Muslims and I think we should speak of Christianity more factually... and be more careful about that line. I do wish that Shai Hulud would speak out more when it happens, and/or provide scholarly points on things we might miss on Biblical knowledge and Christian doctrine, rather than caricatures of same.
Fair enough that you thought it through and we disagree Catholic wise. I can, however, agree that at least for some there's a bit of a placebo effect that goes on with prayer. I'm not a fan of Confession in one sense, because I hate to admit to things, but doing so face to face to a person instead of nebulously going, "Oh sorry Jesus" and not seeing anyone, adds a measure of psychological weight to things. I know that in a sense of doing a face to face Confession with someone I can see, it's better for me than just going "meh, oops?". Just to go with my Confession roll at the moment: Leviticus 19:20-22 shows that a priest does nothing directly, that God does the forgiving with, "If a man lies carnally with a woman… they shall not be put to death… But he shall bring a guilt offering for himself to the Lord… And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed; and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him." Then in the New Testament, we see Christ hand his Disciples the authority to act as a mediator of reconciliation in John 20:21-23, "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" and if we want to continue on that note, 2 Corinthians 2:10, "And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ".

All that said, I'm with you, that if the message of Scripture and forgiveness keeps one person in line morally after accepting it, I'm happy to let them go and be good, disturbing as it is that they need external justification to do so. One of the things that disturbed me, on that note, in Prison Mass, was when we volunteers were once in lock down and discussing why we were there. One woman wanted the guys to know we still saw them as people, that they weren't forgotten inside (she was also the one who memorized everyone's names if they came more than once). Mine was similar, plus it helped me learn more in my field that I couldn't from just books and videos and journal articles; plus when we were all there, no matter what society might think, we were all equal before the eyes of God. Most of the volunteers though, just wanted to add good works to their tally, so to speak, so that they'd have something to show Jesus at Judgment Day. I never once considered that, but it drove about 8 people there.

The sad thing about caricatures though, is that sometimes they're all too true. Sad Kent Hovind hitting me with that dinosaur. A Baptist minister skipping my cousin's wedding rehearsal to officiate a high school football game, running his church into financial ruin, telling someone who complained to find a church that "believes in the power of prayer", and then getting promoted by his organization. The Catholic priest who set off my internal threat radar was later arrested (not sure for what, but I'd be unsurprised if it involved sex, not because of the stereotype, I've met a priest who was in prison for embezzlement, but because that was the feeling I got from him). There's a non-denom church at home that does the Mormon-esque thing of demanding W-2s and 10% off your gross that every other church only half-joked that we were waiting on them to pull a Jonestown.

Just on the note of Catholic stuff in general that comes to my mind, more than anything else and seems interesting to share...I was in Confession once, talking with one of the priests I know who really is the sort of guy who hates to say a bad word about anyone. "Hey Father, small theological question while I have you?"
"Go ahead [Shai Hulud], I'll try to clear whatever it is up."
"When someone dips their hand in holy water and makes the sign of the cross, it's to wash away venial sins when entering the church so that they're suitable, if not in mortal sin, to receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is also supposed to place us in a state of Grace. So why do most people, right after receiving the Eucharist, when we leave, dip into the holy water and cross themselves while leaving?"
"Well some people are very, shall we say, caught up in ritual and maybe want to show extra piety-"
"Father are you just trying to say people aren't really thinking about it?"
"...yes. And no matter how many times you remind them, it's just become habit. But it doesn't hurt anyone, assuming the fonts aren't breeding pools for bacteria...I clean them out each day with soap, just in case."

I feel like I went off topic somewhere along the lengthy reply and forgot something vital that I wanted to include... Consider

(27-08-2016 09:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 11:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Not a Baptist any more at least? Same lesson someone asked with a bit too much interest if they became a serial killer, but accepted Jesus, would they end up in Heaven? And the answer was yes.

How is that an answer? Consider

Layers in that question...it was an answer through the "washing away of sins through the blood of Christ" for the killer part. For the Baptist thing though, RS mainly answered, changing denominations from Baptist isn't a "merely a change" sort of deal, especially to the arch-enemy who is just there behind atheists and Mormons in the hierarchy of "who is going to go to Hell?". I switched because I convinced myself through study and eventually faith, that Catholicism was closer to the Bible than what I was raised in, which no one could tell me why we even believed what we believed, unlike the Catholic Church, which footnotes more or less everything.

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29-08-2016, 04:38 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(28-08-2016 02:02 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Layers in that question...it was an answer through the "washing away of sins through the blood of Christ" for the killer part. For the Baptist thing though, RS mainly answered, changing denominations from Baptist isn't a "merely a change" sort of deal, especially to the arch-enemy who is just there behind atheists and Mormons in the hierarchy of "who is going to go to Hell?". I switched because I convinced myself through study and eventually faith, that Catholicism was closer to the Bible than what I was raised in, which no one could tell me why we even believed what we believed, unlike the Catholic Church, which footnotes more or less everything.

has a longer tradition of explantory bullshit Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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