Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
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29-08-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(29-08-2016 04:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 02:02 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Layers in that question...it was an answer through the "washing away of sins through the blood of Christ" for the killer part. For the Baptist thing though, RS mainly answered, changing denominations from Baptist isn't a "merely a change" sort of deal, especially to the arch-enemy who is just there behind atheists and Mormons in the hierarchy of "who is going to go to Hell?". I switched because I convinced myself through study and eventually faith, that Catholicism was closer to the Bible than what I was raised in, which no one could tell me why we even believed what we believed, unlike the Catholic Church, which footnotes more or less everything.

has a longer tradition of explantory bullshit Tongue

Oh come on man, if we're going there at least make it "makes an effort to have explanatory bullshit". Tongue Seriously, I realize this kind of goes against what I was attempting in replying to RS with us both trying to bring up the "not all Christians" type things, but that same Baptist pastor who did all that stuff (including telling me to shut up and believe as pastoral advice), also killed his church library before his promotion because "people don't read any more" and fired the 98 year old volunteer who ran it on his social security checks.

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29-08-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Chas was amazed that you're a Christian even while recounting how some form of interpreted Christianity leads people to believe that even a guy like Hitler could be "saved. You replied to his amazement by providing a similar example of the same.

You never did express your own feelings on the matter, at least not here, but barring that, why are you a Christian? Simple enough question, I think it deserves a straightforward answer, if you're so kind to oblige us. Because I'm curious too.

And just in case you're interested in actually answering said question, I'm looking for actual reasons why you believe in religion and God in general, and/or in your particular religion/God. If you don't want to answer, that's certainly OK, it's none of my business to begin with, but I'm also not interested in equivocations, if that's to be the case.
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29-08-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(28-08-2016 02:02 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 04:21 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I was raised Southern Baptist, but that particular philosophy/theology had nothing to do with why I left the church. Unlike Shai Hulud, I left the religion altogether, while he "merely" changed denominations, which is a much, much bigger deal among Baptists than it may sound to non-religious people. My opposition was to learning literalist fundamentalism was dead-wrong about science, and learning about real Biblical scholarship (from a Catholic Bible-with-study-guide I acquired from my Cajun relatives... mom switched from Catholicism because my dad is SB) that left the things I had been taught in evangelical apologetics laughable... it only sounds reasonable to you if you don't acknowledge scholarship from outside the evangelical's little intellectual-circle-jerk apologetics factories.

I really can't blame you for leaving for that reasoning. It would be dishonest of me to say that I've not considered the same, for similar reasoning. My mother switched to Methodism, which wasn't as big a switch, but it still caused some small waves amongst those who know her. (She had to do a video and a worksheet on John Wesley; for Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, or RCIA, I had to do 9 months of 3 hours per week of Catholic doctrine and dogma...the nuns from Zimbabwe in my home parish love cooking and it was hilarious, every session was pretty much a small banquet of pastries.) Helping a now ex to rediscover her Catholic faith helped me to choose it as well; considering the pillars of the Reformation Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) are both actually not found in scripture. Plus how Luther actually did make certain changes to scripture itself, not in just choosing to go with the non-deuterocanonical works that had settled upon by the Jewish canon by that time, but also things like adding the word "alone", having considered taking out the books of James and Revelation, etc. Plus how pretty much everyone will keep repeating the need for the Sinner's Prayer, when it's nowhere in Scripture, the modern version is almost always a derivative of Billy Graham's from his Crusades, and while people try to lead others to that Sinner's Prayer via what's colloquially called "The Roman Road" through what Saint Paul says in Romans, Paul also says in Philippians 2:12 , "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,." (emphasis mine).

At least you sort of got the circle-jerk apologetics? I was mainly told by clergy in the Baptist church to shut up and believe. Word for word once. That or one guy espoused the "Trail of Blood", where the True Bible was hidden until Luther found it, because the evil Satanic Catholic Church came up with its own Bible. One apologetics thing I did get was an 8 hour seminar on evolution being false, and Creationism being the truth, by Kent Hovind (later thrown in prison for federal tax crimes and obstruction of some sort)...Kent at one point hit me in the head with a stuffed dinosaur while tossing them into the audience, trying to claim something about the weakening of the gravitational field.

Quote:But seriously, I don't have an issue with it. The entire point of the religion is that a person does sins which render one unworthy of joining with God, and that one must be absolved of them. Some thing that all sins are equally foul, and some think there are degrees. Either way, those who believe that Baptism and repentance wash it all away must believe that even the worst can be Saved. That includes a person whose heart (mind) once contained an urge to murder, or rape, or whatever else they did that was universally awful (rather than just "it's against my religion" sins, such as sodomy, divorce, and premarital sex).

Regardless of what their sin was, they teach that even the worst person can have their sins "washed away", and enter into heaven. They teach that a person who truly does this will no longer want to do anything but follow the example of Jesus (would that they did!!!) and will no longer commit these sins... any of them. Of course, no one does this successfully, to some degree or other, but the religion teaches that, too. But "even the most evil can be the most holy and truly change" is basically Paul's entire message, and is foundational to Christianity.

"It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all." 1 Timothy 1:15 (NASB)
Fair summation of things. Though on the Catholic side there's a distinction between mortal and venial sins, which can sound legalistic, but I found refreshing in comparison to "everything is equal". If I, call someone a "fucking idiot" as I did this morning when this guy crossed the double yellow and nearly hit me head on because he was texting, that shouldn't be equivalent to taking a life. But yeah, excellent summation of foundational Christianity. Also you were so going to Hell for being a Southern Baptist ; we all know the true church is the American Baptist Churches, saying no to dirty atheist money for orphans in Oklahoma. Tongue

Quote:Edit to Add: By the way, I don't think the doctrines of my Catholic side of the family are any more real than the Baptist ones under which I was raised. I don't think Christianity or salvation can change a heart. But I think it can form a placebo effect in which the person has been convinced that they are different, and that it's okay to struggle against what's wrong with them but to use this meditative method (prayer) to combat and stay "holy", to the point that they really do behave differently than they previously did. And I am all for this. I wholly concur with Gandhi that I'd rather see more Christ-like people than "Christians" any day of the week, so I'd like to see them have more success in that aspect of the faith than in repressing others and lying to their social circles about actual knowledge. If 99% of serial killers accepting Jesus are fake, and one is totally serious about it, and the 100th killer decides not to kill because of a placebo effect from his psychological patch for the guilt centers of his brain trying to spark back on helps them function, I'm all for it.

I just wanted to be fair to the actual claims of Christians. I have been seeing some disturbing mis-characterizations of what the Christians think, recently. I wouldn't let you do it with Muslims and I think we should speak of Christianity more factually... and be more careful about that line. I do wish that Shai Hulud would speak out more when it happens, and/or provide scholarly points on things we might miss on Biblical knowledge and Christian doctrine, rather than caricatures of same.
Fair enough that you thought it through and we disagree Catholic wise. I can, however, agree that at least for some there's a bit of a placebo effect that goes on with prayer. I'm not a fan of Confession in one sense, because I hate to admit to things, but doing so face to face to a person instead of nebulously going, "Oh sorry Jesus" and not seeing anyone, adds a measure of psychological weight to things. I know that in a sense of doing a face to face Confession with someone I can see, it's better for me than just going "meh, oops?". Just to go with my Confession roll at the moment: Leviticus 19:20-22 shows that a priest does nothing directly, that God does the forgiving with, "If a man lies carnally with a woman… they shall not be put to death… But he shall bring a guilt offering for himself to the Lord… And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed; and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him." Then in the New Testament, we see Christ hand his Disciples the authority to act as a mediator of reconciliation in John 20:21-23, "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" and if we want to continue on that note, 2 Corinthians 2:10, "And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ".

All that said, I'm with you, that if the message of Scripture and forgiveness keeps one person in line morally after accepting it, I'm happy to let them go and be good, disturbing as it is that they need external justification to do so. One of the things that disturbed me, on that note, in Prison Mass, was when we volunteers were once in lock down and discussing why we were there. One woman wanted the guys to know we still saw them as people, that they weren't forgotten inside (she was also the one who memorized everyone's names if they came more than once). Mine was similar, plus it helped me learn more in my field that I couldn't from just books and videos and journal articles; plus when we were all there, no matter what society might think, we were all equal before the eyes of God. Most of the volunteers though, just wanted to add good works to their tally, so to speak, so that they'd have something to show Jesus at Judgment Day. I never once considered that, but it drove about 8 people there.

The sad thing about caricatures though, is that sometimes they're all too true. Sad Kent Hovind hitting me with that dinosaur. A Baptist minister skipping my cousin's wedding rehearsal to officiate a high school football game, running his church into financial ruin, telling someone who complained to find a church that "believes in the power of prayer", and then getting promoted by his organization. The Catholic priest who set off my internal threat radar was later arrested (not sure for what, but I'd be unsurprised if it involved sex, not because of the stereotype, I've met a priest who was in prison for embezzlement, but because that was the feeling I got from him). There's a non-denom church at home that does the Mormon-esque thing of demanding W-2s and 10% off your gross that every other church only half-joked that we were waiting on them to pull a Jonestown.

Just on the note of Catholic stuff in general that comes to my mind, more than anything else and seems interesting to share...I was in Confession once, talking with one of the priests I know who really is the sort of guy who hates to say a bad word about anyone. "Hey Father, small theological question while I have you?"
"Go ahead [Shai Hulud], I'll try to clear whatever it is up."
"When someone dips their hand in holy water and makes the sign of the cross, it's to wash away venial sins when entering the church so that they're suitable, if not in mortal sin, to receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is also supposed to place us in a state of Grace. So why do most people, right after receiving the Eucharist, when we leave, dip into the holy water and cross themselves while leaving?"
"Well some people are very, shall we say, caught up in ritual and maybe want to show extra piety-"
"Father are you just trying to say people aren't really thinking about it?"
"...yes. And no matter how many times you remind them, it's just become habit. But it doesn't hurt anyone, assuming the fonts aren't breeding pools for bacteria...I clean them out each day with soap, just in case."

I feel like I went off topic somewhere along the lengthy reply and forgot something vital that I wanted to include... Consider

(27-08-2016 09:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  How is that an answer? Consider

Layers in that question...it was an answer through the "washing away of sins through the blood of Christ" for the killer part. For the Baptist thing though, RS mainly answered, changing denominations from Baptist isn't a "merely a change" sort of deal, especially to the arch-enemy who is just there behind atheists and Mormons in the hierarchy of "who is going to go to Hell?". I switched because I convinced myself through study and eventually faith, that Catholicism was closer to the Bible than what I was raised in, which no one could tell me why we even believed what we believed, unlike the Catholic Church, which footnotes more or less everything.

Footnotes aside, do you like your God? I agree, since I was raised as a Baptist, that there's not much to like about the evangelicals' God... I am not sure liking God is the point, but God seems to me fundamentally objectionable on personality alone.
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30-08-2016, 12:00 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(29-08-2016 07:27 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Chas was amazed that you're a Christian even while recounting how some form of interpreted Christianity leads people to believe that even a guy like Hitler could be "saved. You replied to his amazement by providing a similar example of the same.

You never did express your own feelings on the matter, at least not here, but barring that, why are you a Christian? Simple enough question, I think it deserves a straightforward answer, if you're so kind to oblige us. Because I'm curious too.

And just in case you're interested in actually answering said question, I'm looking for actual reasons why you believe in religion and God in general, and/or in your particular religion/God. If you don't want to answer, that's certainly OK, it's none of my business to begin with, but I'm also not interested in equivocations, if that's to be the case.

Because despite cognitive dissonance at times, I have faith. Cop out, maybe. But it's still there. My response to Chas was about how I left something in my childhood that was basically a thing to be raised in, and worked to make my faith my own as it lined up better with Scripture in the New Testament from my own point of view on it.

Coincidences in life that add up at fortuitous times is another thing; granted, I could probably explain many of them away with serious effort, or at least rationalize them to some extent. Take for instance when I was still a Baptist. I had already been "Saved" at a young age, but was always too ashamed to go forward for baptism because I thought I was too old, because everyone else in Sunday School had already gone forward by like age 6 or 7, so deciding at like 10 was something horrible. Ended up just quietly going to church, getting called some pretty horrible stuff as we had things like our "Religions to Beware of" class with me playing Devil's advocate. A now former and felonious sex offender friend who ditched me for becoming Catholic, before he was ever arrested for soliciting sex from children convinced me to go to church camp and I saw it as an opportunity. I had lived in cities and towns my whole life, never seeing the stars without light blocking them out partially, and told God that I would go forward for baptism if I saw those stars without lights there, on my final night at camp, if it would just work out somehow. That said, there's a lot of lights at camp too, making that plea difficult, lest some kid wander off into the woods by accident. Nothing. Next year, nothing. Next year, two years to the day after my request, we've just finished up Vespers for the night, we're walking back to the cabins when the power goes off and I get to see the stars with no light pollution.

Coincidences, possibly. Two years from the day after challenging/pleading with God, the power lines into camp just happened to go down despite clear weather. The generators just happened to not start for a while. Which sure, they may just have been old and harder to start. Still, there have been other things too, which helped solidify my beliefs.

(29-08-2016 10:13 PM)julep Wrote:  Footnotes aside, do you like your God? I agree, since I was raised as a Baptist, that there's not much to like about the evangelicals' God... I am not sure liking God is the point, but God seems to me fundamentally objectionable on personality alone.
I would say yes. Not necessarily what I've read in the Old Testament, which I'll admit to having issues reconciling with how I see God. The whole Hellfire, Brimstone, Guilt Trip, Shut Up and Never Doubt What We Say, type of stuff that I got back in the Baptist days? Not so much, though I suppose it played a role in getting me to where I am now with God, even if I do disagree with large parts of how God was portrayed at times then.

Every time I pray, I close with the Divine Mercy's simplest phrase, "Jesus I Trust in You" as a way of reminding myself that as a Christian I should, and that I should love God with all my heart, that just liking God should not be enough. That, to be trite, it shouldn't be a religion, it should be a relationship. However, no audible voices yet. And if I did hear one, I'd probably go for a psych eval before I believed it.

I don't expect everyone or realistically anyone on TTA to necessarily agree with me on my beliefs. But that's okay. We're all human, each with our own beliefs (or lack there of).

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30-08-2016, 12:19 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(30-08-2016 12:00 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Next year, two years to the day after my request, we've just finished up Vespers for the night, we're walking back to the cabins when the power goes off and I get to see the stars with no light pollution.

Coincidences, possibly. Two years from the day after challenging/pleading with God, the power lines into camp just happened to go down despite clear weather. The generators just happened to not start for a while. Which sure, they may just have been old and harder to start. Still, there have been other things too, which helped solidify my beliefs.
Just a thought, but how widely known was your desire to see the stars without light pollution? If I was at that camp I'd have been well tempted to kill the lights for a bit just to see what you'd do Tongue

On the other hand God is the God of all things, including power cuts *and* coincidences Smile Also you set the bar pretty low, my guess is if the test had been "Please can you give me the power to levitate" you'd be a lot more grounded.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(30-08-2016 12:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-08-2016 12:00 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Next year, two years to the day after my request, we've just finished up Vespers for the night, we're walking back to the cabins when the power goes off and I get to see the stars with no light pollution.

Coincidences, possibly. Two years from the day after challenging/pleading with God, the power lines into camp just happened to go down despite clear weather. The generators just happened to not start for a while. Which sure, they may just have been old and harder to start. Still, there have been other things too, which helped solidify my beliefs.
Just a thought, but how widely known was your desire to see the stars without light pollution? If I was at that camp I'd have been well tempted to kill the lights for a bit just to see what you'd do Tongue

On the other hand God is the God of all things, including power cuts *and* coincidences Smile Also you set the bar pretty low, my guess is if the test had been "Please can you give me the power to levitate" you'd be a lot more grounded.

Didn't tell a single person, otherwise I would not have put it past them. This is the same camp that staged, on the walk to the cabins one night, a fog machined zombie apocalypse type deal with "lost" people wandering through the fog, that you were supposed to try and "Save" them from the "world". And levitation? Heck man, if we're setting that bar, how about telling a mountain to move and having it move? Tongue

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30-08-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(30-08-2016 12:35 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  And levitation? Heck man, if we're setting that bar, how about telling a mountain to move and having it move? Tongue

Weel, ya see, the whole correlation is not causation thing is a bitch. Earthquakes *could* plausibly cause mountains to move, or... rather, the forces involved in tectonic plate collisions result in crust movement accompanied by earthquakes which conceivably could move mountains. And mountains do move measurably all the time due to, among other things continental drift. And it's kinda difficult because you have to establish a geodetic datum... geodesy is fuck-off complicated just FYI. Therefore a moving mountain, even if you prayed for it, is not provably moved by your faith or God listening specifically to you, even if I grant that God causes earthquakes (because he hates gays).

To be more... nasty Wink Your power cut that you waited 3 years for - power cuts do happen, frequently. You were waiting for a single event. And it didn't even have to take the form of a power cut. It could have been anything, as long as you had a clear, unobstructed, free-of-light-pollution view of the stars, however briefly. And OK it was only during one week a year that you waited for this to happen... but that means that assuming the area gets one night time power cut per year you had a one in fifty-two chance each year, that you would see your stars, and that's *excluding* all other possible ways in which you could get a clear view of the stars.

Even if we restrict it to the last day of camp, that's a one in 365 chance every year. If you waited long enough it would be surprising still, but not unheard of. After all, if I meet someone for the first time there's a 1/365 chance that they share my birthday, but it does happen.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(30-08-2016 12:00 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Coincidences in life that add up at fortuitous times is another thing; granted, I could probably explain many of them away with serious effort, or at least rationalize them to some extent. Take for instance when I was still a Baptist. I had already been "Saved" at a young age, but was always too ashamed to go forward for baptism because I thought I was too old, because everyone else in Sunday School had already gone forward by like age 6 or 7, so deciding at like 10 was something horrible. Ended up just quietly going to church, getting called some pretty horrible stuff as we had things like our "Religions to Beware of" class with me playing Devil's advocate. A now former and felonious sex offender friend who ditched me for becoming Catholic, before he was ever arrested for soliciting sex from children convinced me to go to church camp and I saw it as an opportunity. I had lived in cities and towns my whole life, never seeing the stars without light blocking them out partially, and told God that I would go forward for baptism if I saw those stars without lights there, on my final night at camp, if it would just work out somehow. That said, there's a lot of lights at camp too, making that plea difficult, lest some kid wander off into the woods by accident. Nothing. Next year, nothing. Next year, two years to the day after my request, we've just finished up Vespers for the night, we're walking back to the cabins when the power goes off and I get to see the stars with no light pollution.

Coincidences, possibly. Two years from the day after challenging/pleading with God, the power lines into camp just happened to go down despite clear weather. The generators just happened to not start for a while. Which sure, they may just have been old and harder to start. Still, there have been other things too, which helped solidify my beliefs.

I don't expect everyone or realistically anyone on TTA to necessarily agree with me on my beliefs. But that's okay. We're all human, each with our own beliefs (or lack there of).

We all fall into this trap.

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30-08-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(30-08-2016 12:00 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:27 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Chas was amazed that you're a Christian even while recounting how some form of interpreted Christianity leads people to believe that even a guy like Hitler could be "saved. You replied to his amazement by providing a similar example of the same.

You never did express your own feelings on the matter, at least not here, but barring that, why are you a Christian? Simple enough question, I think it deserves a straightforward answer, if you're so kind to oblige us. Because I'm curious too.

And just in case you're interested in actually answering said question, I'm looking for actual reasons why you believe in religion and God in general, and/or in your particular religion/God. If you don't want to answer, that's certainly OK, it's none of my business to begin with, but I'm also not interested in equivocations, if that's to be the case.

Because despite cognitive dissonance at times, I have faith. Cop out, maybe. But it's still there. My response to Chas was about how I left something in my childhood that was basically a thing to be raised in, and worked to make my faith my own as it lined up better with Scripture in the New Testament from my own point of view on it.

Coincidences in life that add up at fortuitous times is another thing; granted, I could probably explain many of them away with serious effort, or at least rationalize them to some extent. Take for instance when I was still a Baptist. I had already been "Saved" at a young age, but was always too ashamed to go forward for baptism because I thought I was too old, because everyone else in Sunday School had already gone forward by like age 6 or 7, so deciding at like 10 was something horrible. Ended up just quietly going to church, getting called some pretty horrible stuff as we had things like our "Religions to Beware of" class with me playing Devil's advocate. A now former and felonious sex offender friend who ditched me for becoming Catholic, before he was ever arrested for soliciting sex from children convinced me to go to church camp and I saw it as an opportunity. I had lived in cities and towns my whole life, never seeing the stars without light blocking them out partially, and told God that I would go forward for baptism if I saw those stars without lights there, on my final night at camp, if it would just work out somehow. That said, there's a lot of lights at camp too, making that plea difficult, lest some kid wander off into the woods by accident. Nothing. Next year, nothing. Next year, two years to the day after my request, we've just finished up Vespers for the night, we're walking back to the cabins when the power goes off and I get to see the stars with no light pollution.

Coincidences, possibly. Two years from the day after challenging/pleading with God, the power lines into camp just happened to go down despite clear weather. The generators just happened to not start for a while. Which sure, they may just have been old and harder to start. Still, there have been other things too, which helped solidify my beliefs.

(29-08-2016 10:13 PM)julep Wrote:  Footnotes aside, do you like your God? I agree, since I was raised as a Baptist, that there's not much to like about the evangelicals' God... I am not sure liking God is the point, but God seems to me fundamentally objectionable on personality alone.
I would say yes. Not necessarily what I've read in the Old Testament, which I'll admit to having issues reconciling with how I see God. The whole Hellfire, Brimstone, Guilt Trip, Shut Up and Never Doubt What We Say, type of stuff that I got back in the Baptist days? Not so much, though I suppose it played a role in getting me to where I am now with God, even if I do disagree with large parts of how God was portrayed at times then.

Every time I pray, I close with the Divine Mercy's simplest phrase, "Jesus I Trust in You" as a way of reminding myself that as a Christian I should, and that I should love God with all my heart, that just liking God should not be enough. That, to be trite, it shouldn't be a religion, it should be a relationship. However, no audible voices yet. And if I did hear one, I'd probably go for a psych eval before I believed it.

I don't expect everyone or realistically anyone on TTA to necessarily agree with me on my beliefs. But that's okay. We're all human, each with our own beliefs (or lack there of).

About 15 years ago I had gotten fired from a job, my soon to be ex-wife was pregnant and it was a very rough time. I had a dream one night while going through this, I was in the shower in this dream and I felt god's presence then a voice spoke to me and said "I am here!".

My conclusion? It was just a dream. Thumbsup

I always found an underlining horror to these alleged signs, if god whispers to you in your dreams, why couldn't he whisper the cure for cancer to someone?
Why couldn't he whisper Hitler's plan to eradicate the Jews to the right people to avert mass genocide?

A god that does such things, is not a god that's worthy of worship, it's not even worth believing in.

A god could simply do better than that.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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30-08-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
These current gods are lazy and good for nothing.
Someone needs to invent better gods.

Bring back Bacchus. He was fun !!

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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