Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
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24-08-2016, 10:55 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 07:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-08-2016 07:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  By doing that, they are enforcing certain moralities as well. To punish someone for stealing is to declare the act of stealing to be wrong. Governments can and do act as moral entities, if only in a wider context than individuals.
That's a very clouded view of the purpose of law.
Laws aren't there to force people to be moral.
Laws are to support a safe and thriving society.
If we don't have property laws then perhaps we have physical confrontations when we attempt to gain or retain possession of something. Perhaps we can't go to work because we need to sit at home guarding our stuff.
There is a real reason why we have laws, rather than the ideology of moral rights.
(24-08-2016 07:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  While it may be hard to achieve, it is not inconceivable that you could.
You can't. Resources are limited.
(24-08-2016 07:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  You are trying to argue against goodness as an utopic ideal, whereas I am arguing for the usefulness of that same concept in action, as well as for its results. You are aware of the fact that we are making progress, as a society, are you not?
We are making progress (IMO) but eroding away moral values, eroding away the expectation that law is to force people to be moral. We are moving more towards a diverse society. This is because of globalisation. Our citizens come from all walks of live, various cultures and beliefs. We have to be tolerant in order to have a stable and thriving society.

(24-08-2016 07:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Is that same progress not moral in itself?
No. It is focussing on safety, stability and thriving. It is casting away the idea that their is a right and wrong,.
I don't want the moral police. I want freedom and autonomy.
(24-08-2016 07:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  You seem to be arguing from an absolutist's point of view, ironically enough. You cannot have an amoral society, not even in theory.
Yes you can. Just define the purpose for govt and law. Define a "constitution" so that govt can't force its morals on people.

the problem with the wording in all of these discussions is that what is Individualism, Freedom, or autonomy but moral values themselves? They're not the antithesis of morality, they're just different views on the values of what is desired, prefered, and valued.

Following keeping things sacred or pure for religious sake is a moral value, though so is the notion of folks having their freedom of choice.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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25-08-2016, 12:06 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 03:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Do Atheists need to be reminded to be moral? Religious people get reminded in church to be moral. Where do atheist's get their reminders?

Hi HJ.

I really like your question. Thanks for not assuming Atheists are, or cannot be, moral. I appreciate that.

Your question is good, but too simple. Ethics are a lot more complicated than a simple reminder, like a note on the refrigerator in the morning. First of all, it's really important to contemplate what is moral all the time. What use are reminders if they aren't actually good ones?

I can understand why that might not be an issue from your perspective. If I may presume, religious people often believe in an authoritative structure of morality. Usually they believe that whatever God does is moral by definition, or alternatively that he always acts in accordance with goodness as a concept. All you would need is a message from him. Do this thing. Don't do this thing. I am making an exception for this thing right now. Etc.

That isn't how most Atheists think about morality. We don't need reminders, because we aren't taking any orders. We have to work out what we think is the right thing to do all on our own. For someone who always strives to act according to sincere moral conviction, needing reminders might be a sign of that conviction not truly being sincere, or a sign that they are not willing to follow their thinking with courage.

Your question has some other interesting things embedded within. For example, what do you think it says about your view of human nature that we all need reminders to be moral? It seems that you believe human nature is contrary to morality, and naturally strays from moral goodness, until we are reminded and put back on course. Would you say this is a positive view of people, or negative one? Why?

Lastly, I do not agree that religious people "get reminded at church to be moral". I think many of the things they are reminded of in church are not moral, or even based on what is good. For example, many churches, especially fundamentalist ones, teach that homosexuality is a sin that offends God, and therefore should not be tolerated or accepted in a godly society. Teachings like these are harmful to the well being of gay people, particularly gay members of the faith. However, it is not the happiness or positive experience of a gay person that a church like this is interested in. They want only for their tenets to be respected, which do not take the feelings or experience of a gay person into account at all. It is God's feelings and desires that are most often represented in the commandments, not ours.

If you have more questions about ethics without belief in gods or goddesses, I am happy to oblige.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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25-08-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Church reminds you that you can be as immoral as you want as long you believe in jesus.

Church reminds you to hate all those people who hold different beliefs, ideologies or even a different version of christianity than you do.

Church reminds you often to keep that money flowing in the collection plate.

And of course church reminds you of eternal torture.

When your mind accepts that a good person has a torture chamber that they use every day, then that's your reminder that you have no moral foundation that enables you to differentiate right from wrong, good from evil or moral from immoral actions.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-08-2016, 02:37 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Blowjob is no more! Smile Thanks Mods Smile

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-08-2016, 04:55 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Aww...he was the first and only person I ever put on "ignore"....I was looking forward to paying him no attention whatsoever. Oh well... Smile
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25-08-2016, 05:13 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 04:55 AM)The Dark One Wrote:  Aww...he was the first and only person I ever put on "ignore"....I was looking forward to paying him no attention whatsoever. Oh well... Smile

Don't worry. There'll be more.

Angel

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25-08-2016, 05:17 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Quote:Don't worry. There'll be more.

Angel


S'what I love about ya, DLJ...your optimism! Big Grin
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25-08-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 02:37 AM)morondog Wrote:  Blowjob is no more! Smile Thanks Mods Smile

Finally. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-08-2016, 07:24 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
I have a sign on the door to the garage:

Quote:Don't run over pregnant women with strollers.

Don't kill the neighbor's dog.

Don't gang rape Brownie Scouts.

Don't do anything that a loud-spouting believer would do.

You know, cause I need to be reminded...
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25-08-2016, 07:30 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 02:37 AM)morondog Wrote:  Blowjob is no more! Smile Thanks Mods Smile

Ding-dong the troll is dead...

Seriously, I was like, wtf did he finally do that he hadn't already done?

Then I went and found out.

I wish I could say I was remotely surprised.

Kudos to his target for having the strength and character to call him out, stand up to him, and push for his banning.
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