Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
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25-08-2016, 07:34 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Heywood,

See if this helps. Think of the Golden Rule being written by Emily Post 90 years ago.

It is a perfectly good rule for the anarchist, skeptic, atheist, antiauthoritarian or just plain old anti-Christian curmudgeon.
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25-08-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 11:06 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(24-08-2016 11:02 AM)Aliza Wrote:  So..... the population most in need of being reminded not to cheat, steal and murder people is the vey one who are already 'being reminded' in church. Maybe this just isn't the church's strong suit.

Well, see, they have this "get out of jail free" card (at least Catholics do) -- it doesn't matter how many bad things you've done, or how bad they are -- you just go to confession, say a few prayers, and "it's all good". I think having this "easy out" might contribute to their lack of morals. Ironic, isn't it?

Morality can be funny for other Christians though. Some Christians who don't do the confessional thing like the Catholics can go out and kill and eat victims like Jeffrey Dahmer and then "accept Jesus" or "get saved by Jesus" or become a "born again Christian" (pick one of the three) and go on with their lives doing good works but free from sin. So Christianity has a safety net for bad behavior.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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25-08-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 03:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Do Atheists need to be reminded to be moral? Well if they are like everyone else then they just might.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_on_o...moral_code

Religious people get reminded in church to be moral. Where do atheist's get their reminders? Please don't bother responding to the thread if you aren't going to watch the tedtalk.

I couldn't watch the video because it didn't work but I read the transcript. It is no secret that people cheat, steal and lie. It's also no secret that most people don't have a well thought out and validated moral code. They think of morality as a duty imposed on them rather than a guide to help them. They follow the one they are taught as children and don't give it much thought. Since the dominant moral code is and has always been the morality of self-sacrifice for the good of others and since this moral code is contrary to the requirements of life and of happiness, it is no wonder that people cheat on it. After all the one who practices it fully and consistently would die! They accept this backwards morality and then guiltily cheat on it. That is its purpose, to instill guilt. If most people were taught that morality is a great value to them and given a rational morality composed of basic principles derived from facts pertaining to life, rather than a set of commandments from some authority without rhyme or reason, then people would not need reminders to be good.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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25-08-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 07:24 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I have a sign on the door to the garage:

Quote:Don't run over pregnant women with strollers.

Don't kill the neighbor's dog.

Don't gang rape Brownie Scouts.

Don't do anything that a loud-spouting believer would do.

You know, cause I need to be reminded...

The third one is correct. Brownies are for eating.
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25-08-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 10:55 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  the problem with the wording in all of these discussions is that what is Individualism, Freedom, or autonomy but moral values themselves?
In your moral belief system you can label them as "moral" values if you like.
I don't though. These things are my own personal wants. Of course I want to make my own decisions rather than have govt and police telling me what I can and can't do.

Of course I want to be me, rather than a carbon copy of others.

Do I think it is wrong for govt and police to create and enforce laws? No. I understand why they do it, sometimes I agree with it, sometimes I dont. When I don't agree with it, do I think it to be morally wrong? No, I don't. It is what it is. We have conflicting ideas and hence we must compete.

There are many people who like dependancy, like rules. That is why they belong to religious outfits. Are they wrong to give away autonomy to give away their choices and freedom to think? No, they are doing what they want. What they want is very different to what I want, none of us are wrong, but we are often in conflict so we compete. Nothing wrong, nothing right, no morals, just conflicting wants and actions.
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25-08-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 01:05 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 07:24 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I have a sign on the door to the garage:


You know, cause I need to be reminded...

The third one is correct. Brownies are for eating.

LOLita. Smartass
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25-08-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(24-08-2016 10:55 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  the problem with the wording in all of these discussions is that what is Individualism, Freedom, or autonomy but moral values themselves?
I've gotta ask ClydeLee, in you position what is the difference between a moral value and a non moral value?

For example, me going to a dairy and purchasing a Pepsi rather than a Coke, is that because I hold a higher moral value on Pepsi in relation to Coke?

What would be an example of a non moral value?
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25-08-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
Nope.

Apparently not.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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25-08-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 02:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-08-2016 10:55 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  the problem with the wording in all of these discussions is that what is Individualism, Freedom, or autonomy but moral values themselves?
I've gotta ask ClydeLee, in you position what is the difference between a moral value and a non moral value?

For example, me going to a dairy and purchasing a Pepsi rather than a Coke, is that because I hold a higher moral value on Pepsi in relation to Coke?

What would be an example of a non moral value?

This is the same question Tomasia asked dozens of times but yeah there's multiple views on the subject of morality so it can be viewed through different lenses. There isn't only the religious ought concept of it. There's the sociological and psychological field studies of morality and moral values as well.

Just like tomy's music taste preference or your soda pop preference, where is the line? Well, what would be relevant to that to the concept of morality, it is just a judgement value. Moral values pretty much are as well.. but about Moral concepts, about actions/consequences, intentions, and about general human existence concepts.

It doesn't have to say something is right/ought/shoulds there is a moral value element if you prefer caring, fairness, purity, tradition, individualism, collective groups of authority much more than others. These are ranges of values that people just innately have from developing internal choices.

Whether someone prefers unitarianism or people get their just deserts types of mentalities is their value systems. I know you aren't fond of counting individual thoughts into a general judgement about a community wide concept, so even without it, each individual is bound to view these values different. Though it's not the same morality concept as the religious notion, it didn't become both out of the blue, the term has long since been kinda widemeaning and debated. It isn't something merely the controlling you ought to do this agenda has direct say.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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25-08-2016, 08:38 PM
RE: Do Atheist need to be remided to be moral?
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(25-08-2016 02:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I've gotta ask ClydeLee, in you position what is the difference between a moral value and a non moral value?

but yeah there's multiple views on the subject of morality so it can be viewed through different lenses.
Yes, I understand. This makes it very, very difficult to have a conversation with others about this topic.
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There isn't only the religious ought concept of it. There's the sociological and psychological field studies of morality and moral values as well.
OK.
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Just like tomy's music taste preference or your soda pop preference, where is the line? Well, what would be relevant to that to the concept of morality, it is just a judgement value.
I would have thought the concept of "right" vs "wrong" are essential. Otherwise (IMO) we are just talking about values or wants or likes rather than moral values or moral choices.
If we are just talking about values then why not call it "values" rather than confuse it by calling it "morals"?
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Moral values pretty much are as well.. but about Moral concepts, about actions/consequences, intentions, and about general human existence concepts.
OK, I'm still not clear. If my intention is to choose a drink that I like. I go to the shop and they have both coke and pepsi. I prefer the taste of pepsi, so my action is to buy the pepsi. I'm not sure how general human existence comes into it.
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It doesn't have to say something is right/ought/shoulds there is a moral value element if you prefer caring, fairness, purity, tradition, individualism, collective groups of authority much more than others. These are ranges of values that people just innately have from developing internal choices.
Sure, but I'm still not clear on what the qualifying condition is that makes something go from being a value or preference into being a moral value or moral belief.
Is my choice of Pepsi over Coke considered a moral choice, why or why not. And if it is, how does including the term "moral" add any value to the conversation as opposed to simply stating that I have a personal preference for Pepsi?
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Whether someone prefers unitarianism or people get their just deserts types of mentalities is their value systems.
Sure, some people value "justice" as "punishment for moral transgressions". But how does that relate to my Pepsi/coke choice? How can they be both lumped into a moral context?
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I know you aren't fond of counting individual thoughts into a general judgement about a community wide concept
I'm OK with saying that the majority of people in such and such community thinks X is wrong. But I am not ok with saying that within the context of such and such a community X is wrong. That's an over generalisation and it clouds how you came to the conclusion that x is wrong in that community. Without clarity It becomes a vacuous statement. Something that cannot be verified, it's just an assertion with nothing behind it.
(25-08-2016 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  .. so even without it, each individual is bound to view these values different. Though it's not the same morality concept as the religious notion, it didn't become both out of the blue, the term has long since been kinda wide meaning and debated. It isn't something merely the controlling you ought to do this agenda has direct say.
I understand that some people may think that their moral beliefs apply to others, those are the "ought" and "should" people.
And i understand that some people think their moral beliefs only apply to themselves i.e. their "oughts" and "shoulds" are only internal for use in their own decision making.
BUT, I guess my beef, is that if we are taking the oughts, shoulds, rights and wrongs out of the equation then why don't we use the word "value" rather than "morals".
"I value pepsi more than coke" is a sentence that makes sense.
"I have a moral preference for Pepsi over coke" is a sentence that doesn't make any sense.
"I think prostitution is immoral" is a sentence that somewhat makes sense if you make several assumptions.
"I value the sanctity of sex as being the sacred union of husband and wife and therefore I deem it to be immoral to have sex outside of marriage" is a very clear statement and clearly shows the difference between values and moral beliefs.
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