Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-08-2011, 10:05 PM
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
(15-08-2011 10:15 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Mark.

Quote:Ok. I was treating Theo poorly. Theo can read that and so can you. You are right.

Not quite an apology, but like AA says, admitting there's a problem is the first step.

Quote:I was just saying it is hard for me to understand you sometimes ( possibly because you have views not easily labelled ).

Aint it cool Cool

Quote:Would you care to tell me what sort of a god you might believe in and why? I am genuinely interested...I'm not asking you so we can have an argument. Is it the same god as Theo's? Would you care to say why you believe there might be a god?

Short version:
-I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist, but an Agnostic
-I believe that the essential quality of any God is that they are supernatural
-The supernatural, by definition, should it exist, is "super" to the natural, meaning it is not governed by the natural, it governs the natural
-Naturalism, the belief that everything is controlled by the natural laws of the universe, is an assumption, not a proven fact
-I believe that given the complexity of existence, the possibility of "existence" outside of our universe (space-time), the knowledge of an act of creation, the possibility of multiple-universes with different natural laws (both in type and value) and the knowledge that the laws of the universe are not absolute because they break down WITHIN our universe as we approach a singularity, that the question, ‘is there something beyond the natural laws of the universe’ is a reasonable question
-Because the supernatural is, by definition, beyond the governance of the natural laws we use to measure phenomena, no empirical data for or against the supernatural can ever exist
-There is no evidence for or against the existence of the supernatural because there can never be
-As Thomas Henry Huxley said, "Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle... Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."
-The existence and non-existence of the supernatural are neither demonstrated nor demnostrable
-Because they are neither demonstrated nor demonstrable, one must believe in neither
-I neither believe in the existence of God(s) nor disbelieve in the existence of God(s)
-I believe that the essence of Theism is belief in the existence of God and that the essence of Atheism is disbelief in the existence of God; hence, I am neither
-The Schrödinger cat in a box experiment suggests that something can simultaneously be and not be until observed
-Since there will never be evidence for or against the supernatural, it will never be observed; therefore, I believe that it simultaneously exists and does not exist
-I believe that God(s) simultaneously exist and do not exist and that that will be their state in perpetuity
-I believe that the God question is beyond the which religion(s) is(are) correct question

Long version with subsequent 17 pages of argument about why it's impossible for me to believe... what I believe... I still don't know how that one works.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Ok Matt...thankyou for sharing that with me. Sorry, for some reason I never saw your thread about your agnosticism. I have read the first few pages of that thread and will read more (I am in my lunch break now). I have read what you just wrote to me a few times too. I understand you better now.

I wonder if I can share my thoughts without you getting angry (or appearing to get angry)? You will understand me better and I would value your response. This question of the possible existence of God doesn't interest me particularly, because as you say it can't be proven or diproven. I'm in the "spaghetti monster" camp...as far as I'm concerned if there is no evidence it doesn't exist. That doesn't devalue in my eyes what you choose to believe, and a lot of people find it interesting, as demonstrated by the lenth of your post.

My issue with Christians is they choose to believe in a God that has all the most unattractive features of man, yet they base their ethics on him. He is jealous, violent, homophobic, sexist, irrational, unpreditable, anti science, boring and not particularly bright. It can be proven the essential tenets of the Bible are not based on truthful history...at least I believe I can prove that...having spent most of my spare time in the last 6 years studying it. I believe"God's" teachings cause untold harm to humanity....if you are interested why see http://www.markfulton.org/christianity-a...al-society , and
http://www.markfulton.org/the-psychologi...ristianity

I believe the primary reason Christianity is so prevalent is that it facilitates power and control, and an easy income, for churches...it has no inherint value and in fact causes way more harm than good.

I have no problem with spiritualism ( provided it is not turned to as a substitute for the rational solutions to problems)...but the Christian God and "Jesus" and the immoral non sensical teachings of the Bible I have a serious problem with. I am particularly concerned when they are taught to trusting, sensitive, innocent children as the truth. The advertising from churches that some children are exposed to makes MacDonalds look small time.

I engage with and respect Christians the same as I do any fellow human, but if they tell me I have a flawed understanding of "their" Bible, when in my opinion it is they who doesn't understand their own book, I'm going to let them know. If they make wild claims like "God talked to me" I'm going to expect them to prove it. If they ignore or refuse to answer questions, then I'm going to tell them, at first politely, but then a little more forcibly.

For hundreds of years Christians have got away with making outlandish claims and preaching nonsensical rubbish to people, and its time to make a stand against it. People may label me as being inflammatory, inpolite, disrespectful or unholy...I don't care.

Let's not forget that everywhere around the world innocent children are having hymns and prayers pumped into their uncritical minds. That is where the real abuse is.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
15-08-2011, 11:53 PM
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
Hey, Mark.

Quote:I wonder if I can share my thoughts without you getting angry (or appearing to get angry)?

[Image: vomit-6.gif]

Quote:You will understand me better and I would value your response.

You asked for it Cool

Quote:...as far as I'm concerned if there is no evidence it doesn't exist.

That's one way of looking at things.

Quote:My issue with Christians is they choose to believe in a God that has all the most unattractive features of man, yet they base their ethics on him. He is jealous, violent, homophobic, sexist, irrational, unpreditable, anti science, boring and not particularly bright.

Bit of a mischaracterisation, but hey, I'm no Christian theologist. Do you believe that God as portrayed in the Bible has any redeemable characteristics?

Quote:I believe the primary reason Christianity is so prevalent is that it facilitates power and control, and an easy income, for churches...

Christian churches do have power and do use it to control, in vastly different degrees of course. Sometimes their power is near absolute and sometimes they can barely muster influence. But I would argue that power is not a function of religion. Power is a function of hierarchy.

Churches can make tons of money, but that's the point of hierarchy. Marx, the guy who said, "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes," calls that exploitation. Again, there's a range. My friend's father, a devout Catholic who gave tons of money to the church, left the church the day he walked into a gold room in the Vatican and saw that they didn't share his love of sacrifice. On the other hand, ministers tend to make peanuts.

Quote:...it has no inherint value and in fact causes way more harm than good.

That's actually a contradiction. It can't both have no inherent value and be capable of causing good.

The plus/minus rating of the church is a totally reasonable argument. Most of the time I think it's in the minus, but I find the idea that it has no inherent value a little hyperbolic.

That's actually a big issue for me. One can slag anything with a healthy dose of hyperbole. I could make Gandhi look like a monster with hyperbole. I think it's important to slice through it though, to recognise spin and demagoguery and figure out what's real.

Are there issues with religion(s) both as cultural groups and as functioning organisations? Sure. Are they without value? I find that hard to swallow.

Quote:I have no problem with spiritualism ( provided it is not turned to as a substitute for the rational solutions to problems)...

I have an issue with hijacking. This is not an accusation against you in particular, but I don't like how certain proponents of science and Atheism have hijacked reason for themselves and made it seem like the religious are incapable of reason. That's just plain old demonstrably false. It's a tactic pawned off as truth. Me no likey.

Quote:I am particularly concerned when they are taught to trusting, sensitive, innocent children as the truth.

This has always struck me as a really flimsy tug-on-the-heart-strings argument (especially when you pour on the cheese with terms like trusting, sensitive and innocent). Parents transmit cultural beliefs to their children. Period. They can no more halt that process than they can halt transmitting genes to their children. But it's like they say, opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one and they all stink but yours. What should be said is, I disagree with the content of the parent to child transmission, not the act of transmission itself. But the act of transmission itself is being portrayed as a horrible Patty Hearst moustache twisting diabolical act of brainwashing, which is silly. It’s a universal. So yeah, parents teach children all kinds of stuff that one might disagree with, but to pretend that teaching children is indoctrination and brainwashing is, once again, hyperbole.

Quote:I engage with and respect Christians the same as I do any fellow human, but if they tell me I have a flawed understanding of "their" Bible, when in my opinion it is they who doesn't understand their own book, I'm going to let them know.

That's reasonable.

Quote:If they make wild claims like "God talked to me" I'm going to expect them to prove it.

To me, that's irrational. As far as I'm concerned, you're asking them to do something impossible. As I mentioned above in my personal beliefs, there will never, ever, be empirical evidence for or against God. So I think that it's irrational to ask someone to provide evidence that cannot exist in order to demonstrate something that's indemonstrable.

To me the only rational reaction is to simply accept that this person thinks God spoke to them. That’s factual. They think that. Unless they’re fucking with you that is.

Quote:If they ignore or refuse to answer questions, then I'm going to tell them, at first politely, but then a little more forcibly.

A touch dickish mayhaps. A smidge. A soupçon of dickliness.

… I was trying to think of something to add so I didn’t go out on dickliness… I got nuthin… how bout this… no… ok… gunight everybody!!!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2011, 01:15 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2011 02:58 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
(15-08-2011 11:53 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Mark.

Quote:I wonder if I can share my thoughts without you getting angry (or appearing to get angry)?

[Image: vomit-6.gif]

Quote:You will understand me better and I would value your response.

You asked for it Cool

Quote:...as far as I'm concerned if there is no evidence it doesn't exist.

That's one way of looking at things.

Quote:My issue with Christians is they choose to believe in a God that has all the most unattractive features of man, yet they base their ethics on him. He is jealous, violent, homophobic, sexist, irrational, unpreditable, anti science, boring and not particularly bright.

Bit of a mischaracterisation, but hey, I'm no Christian theologist. Do you believe that God as portrayed in the Bible has any redeemable characteristics?

Quote:I believe the primary reason Christianity is so prevalent is that it facilitates power and control, and an easy income, for churches...

Christian churches do have power and do use it to control, in vastly different degrees of course. Sometimes their power is near absolute and sometimes they can barely muster influence. But I would argue that power is not a function of religion. Power is a function of hierarchy.

Churches can make tons of money, but that's the point of hierarchy. Marx, the guy who said, "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes," calls that exploitation. Again, there's a range. My friend's father, a devout Catholic who gave tons of money to the church, left the church the day he walked into a gold room in the Vatican and saw that they didn't share his love of sacrifice. On the other hand, ministers tend to make peanuts.

Quote:...it has no inherint value and in fact causes way more harm than good.

That's actually a contradiction. It can't both have no inherent value and be capable of causing good.

The plus/minus rating of the church is a totally reasonable argument. Most of the time I think it's in the minus, but I find the idea that it has no inherent value a little hyperbolic.

That's actually a big issue for me. One can slag anything with a healthy dose of hyperbole. I could make Gandhi look like a monster with hyperbole. I think it's important to slice through it though, to recognise spin and demagoguery and figure out what's real.

Are there issues with religion(s) both as cultural groups and as functioning organisations? Sure. Are they without value? I find that hard to swallow.

Quote:I have no problem with spiritualism ( provided it is not turned to as a substitute for the rational solutions to problems)...

I have an issue with hijacking. This is not an accusation against you in particular, but I don't like how certain proponents of science and Atheism have hijacked reason for themselves and made it seem like the religious are incapable of reason. That's just plain old demonstrably false. It's a tactic pawned off as truth. Me no likey.

Quote:I am particularly concerned when they are taught to trusting, sensitive, innocent children as the truth.

This has always struck me as a really flimsy tug-on-the-heart-strings argument (especially when you pour on the cheese with terms like trusting, sensitive and innocent). Parents transmit cultural beliefs to their children. Period. They can no more halt that process than they can halt transmitting genes to their children. But it's like they say, opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one and they all stink but yours. What should be said is, I disagree with the content of the parent to child transmission, not the act of transmission itself. But the act of transmission itself is being portrayed as a horrible Patty Hearst moustache twisting diabolical act of brainwashing, which is silly. It’s a universal. So yeah, parents teach children all kinds of stuff that one might disagree with, but to pretend that teaching children is indoctrination and brainwashing is, once again, hyperbole.

Quote:I engage with and respect Christians the same as I do any fellow human, but if they tell me I have a flawed understanding of "their" Bible, when in my opinion it is they who doesn't understand their own book, I'm going to let them know.

That's reasonable.

Quote:If they make wild claims like "God talked to me" I'm going to expect them to prove it.

To me, that's irrational. As far as I'm concerned, you're asking them to do something impossible. As I mentioned above in my personal beliefs, there will never, ever, be empirical evidence for or against God. So I think that it's irrational to ask someone to provide evidence that cannot exist in order to demonstrate something that's indemonstrable.

To me the only rational reaction is to simply accept that this person thinks God spoke to them. That’s factual. They think that. Unless they’re fucking with you that is.

Quote:If they ignore or refuse to answer questions, then I'm going to tell them, at first politely, but then a little more forcibly.

A touch dickish mayhaps. A smidge. A soupçon of dickliness.

… I was trying to think of something to add so I didn’t go out on dickliness… I got nuthin… how bout this… no… ok… gunight everybody!!!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Hi Matt,
what part of the world do you hail from if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks for your reply (which has a lot more lot more peace, love and empathy in it than some of your others...I'm having a laugh with you here mate...not criticising you, ok?)

As far as God's redeeming features....yeah, he's got some, but so did Hitler and so does Metallica's Black Album. God shows his true colours way too often to be given any credit.

Re "But I would argue that power is not a function of religion. Power is a function of hierarchy."

Ok...I hear that...wow.....we have fundamentally different ideas about the same topic! (If you don't mind I will stick with talking about Christianity rather than any other religion). It hadn't occurred to me that anyone who wasn't a Christian would consider Christianity as anything more than a game churches play to wield control over people. Here in Australia if you ask the man on the street what he thinks of churches a typical answer given is that he is sick of all the wars and disharmony caused by the Christian religion. The Christians, of course, usually think the opposite.

A short "cut and paste"...

"I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized by its churches, has been and still is, the principal enemy of moral progress in this world."

Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

A Shameful History

Christian belief relies on churches to promote it. Let’s be unfair to a minority of churches by lumping all churches together and considering their behavior throughout history

Think of how in centuries past they slaughtered or imprisoned their opposition and burned literature they didn’t approve of. Think of all the cruel wars, the persecutions, the hatred and bitterness, the taking of people’s real estate and other assets, the selling of indulgences, the opposition to science and medicine, and the hypocrisy of those at the top. Then consider how they inserted exclusively Christian dogma into schools and the resultant indoctrination of children, the singing and the prayers, the door knocking, and all the other advertising. Think of the cover-ups of sexual abuse. Consider how they have always tried to tell people what to think and how to behave by promising them heaven and threatening hell. Christianity has far too often reined supreme using indoctrination, ignorance, delusion, lies, deception, wars, subjugation, torture and murder. It is arguable that the occupation in the Middle East today is another Christian Crusade against Islamic ideology. By any measure Christian behaviour throughout history has been far more terrifying than Islam. The behaviour of churches has had everything to do with greed and nothing to do with empathy for their fellow man. The typical church has always craved power and control over people with a view to amassing riches for themselves. Even some of today’s most ardent believers will admit this, as do some modern church leaders who have made token apologies for past sins against humanity. (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm)

Now you say that this is due to "the hierarchy" rather than the essence of the religion. I'm sorry, I absolutely disagree. Christianity (the religion), the whole show, ( the dogma and the hierarchy),from the Old Testament to the gospels to the writings of Paul, is all about getting people to join a cult and stay in it. "They" ie the authors, editors, compilers and promotors of the Bible use every psychological trick they can to make that happen. They indoctrinate the children, threaten people with hell, promise a reward they never have to deliver(heaven), threaten non believers and socially isolate them, and they wound people psychologically by distorting their natural attitude to sexuality, hoping to replace that with a love of Jesus or the church. They have totally fabricated and distorted historical truth to achieve their aims ( for eg Jesus was a Christian, Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus died for your sins). They play with our very language...for example "gospel truth", "good Christian," "Christian education" ( the gospels are full of lies, Christianity is not good, Christianity is not about truth and should therefore not be considered as education, but indoctrination). I could go on....but you should get the idea.

Re "This has always struck me as a really flimsy tug-on-the-heart-strings argument (especially when you pour on the cheese with terms like trusting, sensitive and innocent)."

I hear that. Why? Surely lies designed only to bolster their( the churches') own power should not be taught to children as truth? Allow me another small cut and paste...

Churches and Children

“We’ve been got at, and our principal spiritual battle is waking up to that fact”

(Douglas Lockhart, Dark Side of God, 233).

It is a free world so churches have the right to interpret history to their own advantage and to advertise to adults, but when they impose their beliefs on young children they are playing dirty. Churches have always made children one of their key targets because it is much easier to sell mythical nonsense to a young child than to a rational adult. The uncritical, sensitive and trusting mind of the child is usually where the Christian seed is first planted. Children’s heads are filled with exorbitant amounts of Christian propaganda in the form of prayers, hymns and stories about heaven, hell, Jesus, angels and devils. Good and bad behavior is described in Christian terms, and children are told God is watching them and can read their thoughts. Christmas toys and chocolate Easter eggs, obviously designed to appeal to children, are associated with Jesus’ birth and resurrection. Churches run schools in which children are taught about the Bible, complete with Christian prejudices, as part of the curriculum. The promises of Christian fundamentalism create fear, then appeal directly to the primitive security fears of a child to relieve it. Well-meaning Christian teachers fail to realize churches are using them to fill children’s minds with so much superstitious nonsense it makes the advertising on television look small time. This unrelenting blitz develops brand loyalty. Brainwashed children become compliant adults, obedient Christian adults willing to part with their cash. Compliant adults help brainwash the next generation and the cycle continues. Churches have refined the art of keeping themselves in business, and make the corporations of the commercial world look like amateurs in comparison.

Does this hurt the children? Oh yes. Convincing a child he or she is bad does untold harm to basic self-esteem. To a child, Satan can be a very real person, waiting to devour him.Many children are psychologically scarred by their Christian upbringing, although the damage sometimes doesn’t become apparent until later in life. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other doctors are way too familiar with the issues. Early childhood experiences are so embedded in the subconscious that people often have recurrent troubling thoughts and nightmares. The problems include paranoia, poor self-esteem, poor self-expression, irrational thinking, an inability to consider alternative views, fear of the devil, fear of hell, guilt about sexuality, and hurt due to exposure to hypocrisy and unhealthy prejudices. It is just not right to indoctrinate children with an ideology that causes this many problems!

If Christian adults disagree with me and genuinely believe the Christian agenda is so wonderful, why the pressing need to indoctrinate and pre-prejudice young minds with so much of it? Why not teach Christianity to children when they are old enough to think for themselves? Geography, trigonometry, and economics are universally regarded as valuable, but no one thinks a five-year-old needs to be saturated with them.

Parents should not allow churches to use psychological tricks such as repetition in prayer and musical messages in hymns to promote the dogma to their innocent children! If the dogma is that valuable it should sell itself without trickery.

The truth about this is that churches know it is vital to get inside children’s heads as early as possible. That very fact means their agenda is focused on the good of the church, not the good of the child. That, in my opinion, is not excusable from organizations claiming to preach social harmony and morality.

Children deserve a lot better. What young children soak up like a sponge is human love, fun, gentle discipline, stimulation and truthful facts about their world. That is what makes them happy and gives real meaning to their lives, as shown by the well-adjusted and happy children in many close knit communities who have never heard of God or Jesus. Human love and stimulation are real. Nonsense about an ancient God with odd ideas who they can’t see, touch or understand is not.

Church authorities may accuse me of being cynical. These people have probably never really thought about church greed and the reality of indoctrination. Brand loyalty has been so heavily stamped into their minds they can’t fathom the idea of their church losing its grip on the market. Consider the typical fundamentalist’s response if a Christian denomination other than his own were to educate his children. The teachings are almost identical, yet many would be horrified because a “Christian education” is all about shoring up the power of one type of Christianity, not about providing a blueprint for a happy life."

I've ranted enough. Will address your other comments tomorrow.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2011, 09:00 AM
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
Hey, Mark.

Quote:Thanks for your reply (which has a lot more lot more peace, love and empathy in it than some of your others...

[Image: vomit-6.gif]

Quote:As far as God's redeeming features....yeah, he's got some, but so did Hitler and so does Metallica's Black Album. God shows his true colours way too often to be given any credit.

So let me get this straight. You're comparing God to Hitler and Metallica?

I don't like the fact that you admit to God having redeeming qualities but utterly dismiss them. I think that portraying anything as completely bad is a cheap way to support one's argument. It's obfuscation, nothing more.

As for the rest of the post, dude, it was a rant. There really isn't anything for me to respond to. I'm hoping the rest of your response isn't so Chicken Little.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2011, 09:25 AM
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
This debate is getting interesting.

I am going to throw my "neutral" two cents into the fray. I do not mind small community churches that provide people with a sense of community and provide services to the community with the donations made by the community. I have a BIG problem with Megachurches and large religious organizations who use their money and members to drive political issues. These large organizations who spend a lot of time, effort and money trying to smear evolution, education, the abortion debate, other religious ideas/opinions and anything they disagree with are (in my opinion) merely trying to brainwash and manipulate the public at large, who are not well educated enough to see the hypocrisy or check facts. The point is that I agree with Fulton that brainwashing and manipulation of facts most certainly DOES happen from the church, but it is mainly driven by the big organizations/churches who have the money and power. That is not to say that small churches don't fall victim to this either. They follow suit with the large churches (mostly), but small community churches are little more than community centers (in this way I agree with Matt that they do provide some "good" to the people who attend). If only they would preach less about hell and more about our present conditions on Earth...

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
16-08-2011, 04:01 PM
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
(16-08-2011 09:00 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Mark.

Quote:Thanks for your reply (which has a lot more lot more peace, love and empathy in it than some of your others...

[Image: vomit-6.gif]

Quote:As far as God's redeeming features....yeah, he's got some, but so did Hitler and so does Metallica's Black Album. God shows his true colours way too often to be given any credit.

So let me get this straight. You're comparing God to Hitler and Metallica?



As for the rest of the post, dude, it was a rant. There really isn't anything for me to respond to. I'm hoping the rest of your response isn't so Chicken Little.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Come on Matt...you can do better that this. I get the the impression you see this discussion as a "spar". I don't. I want to learn from you, not compete with you. Please don't accuse me of a rant...I used that term tongue in cheek because I had written a lot. I've said some really important things....but I'm not claiming they are the "absolute truth"...I can learn from what you think and you can learn from me if we discuss them.

I am drawing an analogy with God and Hitler....absolutely. Yahweh IS a worse character than Hitler ever was, unless you smooth him over and reinterpret him as Christians try to do. To be honest I've never heard a Melallica album, but as they have earned a bucket load of money the album probably has the odd inspired moment despite being being basically ordinary.

Re "I don't like the fact that you admit to God having redeeming qualities but utterly dismiss them. I think that portraying anything as completely bad is a cheap way to support one's argument. It's obfuscation, nothing more."

No mate....I have every right to dismiss "God". He's a loser, a zero, and his ideas are dangerous. If you disagree, tell me why.

Re "I'm hoping the rest of your response isn't so Chicken Little." huh?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2011, 05:32 PM
 
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
OK, mates, this is what I think, even if christians actually believe in heaven, by survival instinct they would not want to die, besides, supose that a christian is going to die, and he/she knows it, even if he or she believes in heaven, they would be sad, not only because they are going to die, but because of frustration, frustration of not have done everything they wanted to do in this life.

Even if they did everything they wanted to do (or almost everything) they would be sad because of people they would be leaving behind, or would any of us like to see our loved ones sufer for ones dead?

And finally, it doesn't matter wether you truly believe in heaven or not, you would simply feel sad if someone close to you dies, because they are no longer at your side, because you MISS them, and know that you will never see them, or talk to them in this life, or even see an small smile in their faces.

It is unfair to judge christians for crying after someone they love (or simply feel compassion for) dies, even if they believe in heaven. Don't pretend that religion is going to take away all the pain in them, even if themselfs would like to, they are humans after all.

And as always, I leave for you my biggest and friendlier smile XD
Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes JokingReaper's post
16-08-2011, 05:47 PM
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
Hey, Mark.

Quote:I get the the impression you see this discussion as a "spar".

Dude, you said straight up that you wanted my feedback.

O monstrous world! Take note, take note, O world,
To be direct and honest is not safe.

Cool

I didn't jump on the word rant because you wrote it. Honest. But, dude, straight up, you just went off.

Quote:Yahweh IS a worse character than Hitler ever was, unless you smooth him over and reinterpret him as Christians try to do.

See, it's this kind of thing. It's like saying Betty Rubble is hotter than Elle Macpherson. How do you comment after someone says that?

And I was talking at length about hyperbole and how I challenge the brainwashing thing and you were, not to be a dink, spewing hyperbole and going on about the evils of brainwashing.

Quote:No mate....I have every right to dismiss "God". He's a loser, a zero, and his ideas are dangerous. If you disagree, tell me why.

I told you why. Nothing is devoid of good and you contradicted yourself.

I mean, honestly, if you're saying that X is devoid of value, you don't have to say anything after that. The only possible answer to why is, because it’s devoid of value.

My issue is that if you're commenting on the bad and ignoring the good, wilfully, then all you're doing is demonising.

Chicken Little is the character that ran around saying that the sky is falling. That's what I felt when I was reading your post.

...

OK. Look. I know that it sucks to feel dismissed. And for my part in that I do apologise. I too felt dismissed because I felt you talked past me and perhaps it got the better of me. But I honestly got very little from your post. I'm one to pull out individual sentences and comment on them, but I really struggled to find things to comment on. I honestly felt that there was a lot of fire and brimstone and I tuned out.

Indulge me. Help me understand your points without dressing it up in so much rape and murder and horribleness.

Also, I do hope to hear any responses you have to what I said. Straight up.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2011, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2011 05:57 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
(16-08-2011 09:25 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This debate is getting interesting.

I am going to throw my "neutral" two cents into the fray. I do not mind small community churches that provide people with a sense of community and provide services to the community with the donations made by the community. I have a BIG problem with Megachurches and large religious organizations who use their money and members to drive political issues. These large organizations who spend a lot of time, effort and money trying to smear evolution, education, the abortion debate, other religious ideas/opinions and anything they disagree with are (in my opinion) merely trying to brainwash and manipulate the public at large, who are not well educated enough to see the hypocrisy or check facts. The point is that I agree with Fulton that brainwashing and manipulation of facts most certainly DOES happen from the church, but it is mainly driven by the big organizations/churches who have the money and power. That is not to say that small churches don't fall victim to this either. They follow suit with the large churches (mostly), but small community churches are little more than community centers (in this way I agree with Matt that they do provide some "good" to the people who attend). If only they would preach less about hell and more about our present conditions on Earth...

Hi bearded duke, thanks for your comment. We absolutely agree about mega churches. I also agree that some smaller churches do good things in this world...for example St Vincent de Paul, Salvation Army and am sure there are thousands of churches with good people doing good things. There are also many secular groups doing just as well or better such as does Rotary, YMCA, Amnesty International, Unicef, the Boy Scouts etc etc. I would be interested to hear what you think of the following comments.

These good things happen despite Christianity, not because of it. Taken as a whole, the Christian dogma is TOXIC. It is propaganda that we equate "Christian" with "good". I have a thousand arguments why that is so...using examples lifted straight from their manual...the Bible. The psychological damage done to people is insidious, but very real. Many of them don't realise how damaged they are, and it is not always obvious. Many progressive churches are ignoring much of the Bible. I would say that they should get real and ignore the whole Bible and just embrace their follow man instead of god or Jesus. So while some churches do good humanitarian work, and there are good admirable people in churches, they would do themselves and others a big favor by doing their humanitarian work through healthier secular channels.

The biggest churches, of which the Vatican is the daddy of them all. as you say, rarely do much genuine humanitarian work (yes, I admit I am generalizing...I have to...there are so many of them), yet also poison people's minds with their toxic ideas.

I really feel strongly about this, and want to get the idea out there. As someone said, however, opinions are like arseholes...everyone's smells but your own, so I would value your opinion on the above. Cheers, Mark
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2011, 06:54 PM
 
RE: Do Christians REALLY believe what they say?
(16-08-2011 09:00 AM)Ghost Wrote:  As for the rest of the post, dude, it was a rant. There really isn't anything for me to respond to. I'm hoping the rest of your response isn't so Chicken Little.

JAJAJA, looks like you've got pwned (powerfully owned) Ghost JAJAJA XD
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: