Do Christians really love God?
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31-07-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
(31-07-2013 02:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 02:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  There will be times when you feel like you really love God,

No there won't Tongue

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31-07-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
Quote:No Little-Boy-Who-Cried-Wolf-Proven-Liar-Sexually-Pleasing-Jebus-Troll-Joke. You think we would just forget your dishonesty. Discussing the seat of emotions in brain chemistry, is NOT an attempt to deflect anything. Nice try at ACTUALLY an attempted deflection. YOU made no point. What IS your point ? You people say "love is *derided*" if it's origin is not seated in mysterious woo-woo. Well it's not, and that is YOUR value judgement, and you have not a shred of evidence to support one thing you say. Not one. Zip. You are making an argument from ignorance. What exactly is it you think we don't know that would add to your argument. You know NOTHING. You argue from ignorance. So besides your false analogy, now you have a second fallacy, and you think we're gonna swallow that one too. Nope. You are a total joke, Pleasy. So now you're saying all atheists know nothing about love. What a gigantic ignoramus. But true to form, I must say. More false analogy. To equate that with my concern for my fellow man, is just more false crap. Nice try. Fail again.

I didn't say "unless love is mysterious". I inferred that you and I know very, very little about its intricate mechanisms.

I didn't say you lacked concern for your fellow man, I said you treat me with contempt and are making Atheists as a class look, well, class-less.
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31-07-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
(31-07-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  making Atheists as a class look, well, class-less.

Can't say your representation of Christians is anything to write home about Wink
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31-07-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
(31-07-2013 01:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Perhaps.

No, unfortunately. You are certainly maintaining a strong conviction without any evidence whatsoever.

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31-07-2013, 06:27 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
(31-07-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:No Little-Boy-Who-Cried-Wolf-Proven-Liar-Sexually-Pleasing-Jebus-Troll-Joke. You think we would just forget your dishonesty. Discussing the seat of emotions in brain chemistry, is NOT an attempt to deflect anything. Nice try at ACTUALLY an attempted deflection. YOU made no point. What IS your point ? You people say "love is *derided*" if it's origin is not seated in mysterious woo-woo. Well it's not, and that is YOUR value judgement, and you have not a shred of evidence to support one thing you say. Not one. Zip. You are making an argument from ignorance. What exactly is it you think we don't know that would add to your argument. You know NOTHING. You argue from ignorance. So besides your false analogy, now you have a second fallacy, and you think we're gonna swallow that one too. Nope. You are a total joke, Pleasy. So now you're saying all atheists know nothing about love. What a gigantic ignoramus. But true to form, I must say. More false analogy. To equate that with my concern for my fellow man, is just more false crap. Nice try. Fail again.

I didn't say "unless love is mysterious". I inferred that you and I know very, very little about its intricate mechanisms.

I didn't say you lacked concern for your fellow man, I said you treat me with contempt and are making Atheists as a class look, well, class-less.

You reap what you sow. You *would* make Christians look very foolish, but I know as a "class" they are in no way represented by your fundie nonsense. If you choose to generalize due to you small exposure to reality and because I push back, that's your problem. You represent a VERY small and very limited literalistic sect/brand of your cult. I am more than well aware how much larger Christianity is than what you represent. I actually have many friends in religion. You embarrass them. They chuckled and shook their heads when I talked about you.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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31-07-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
(29-07-2013 01:01 PM)IgniteThought Wrote:  Thank you all for your replies! You've certainly given me different perspectives that could, to some extent, answer the question. Im gonna comment on a few of those perspectives.

StarCrash said:

Quote:Is it possible to love someone that you can't regularly spend time with? Of course! I was also a former Christian, and I undoubtedly put God's will before mine on most occasions because of that love, even when it required personal sacrifice.

First, I'd like to ask you; are you sure the reason why you put god's will before your own was because you genuinely loved him or because it is what was expected of you? or to avoid punishment or receive a reward? Could you say you felt the same as you would if you had done the same thing for your wife or a dear friend? Christians are often told if you do God's will you will be blessed in the end, even if at first it seems you're sacrificing more than what you are receiving. It is sort of an act of faith. When you do it for a person you love, there is no guarantee you'll be rewarded and, in fact, sometimes you might feel unwilling to receive something in return. Could you say you felt this way when you sacrificed something to fulfill what you thought was God's will?

Quote:I also loved my daughter long before she was born, and I felt love for a young Brazillian girl that I was supporting "for less than the cost of a coffee per day" back when I could afford to do so. Love isn't *only* built from proximity and interaction... those things just make it stronger.

I don't think is necessarily proximity, but definitely interaction, and proximity obviously provides more opportunities for interaction. Through interaction is how we get to know the traits we come to love of a person. I'm not sure if you had any interaction with that Brazilian girl, but most of those programs send you letters and photos. Isn't this enough tangible and real interaction to inspire some degree or love? Also, she's human, she's the same as you are, she could even be your daughter, you can have some empathy and sympathy for her.

At first I thought, well, it is natural for a parent to feel love for a child on the way, it is even an evolutionary trait. You also hold some idea of what babies are like and can have realistic expectations of what it might be like to hold it in your arms. In the case of a baby, you also have something real and tangible to point your love to. It also happens to be inside the most important person in your life.

I think in the end both examples you provided are not comparable to God or an imaginary being, because since these recipients of love are actually real, you can have at least SOME degree of actual, tangible interaction that could stimulate your brain enough to start pumping the love juices. I guess you answered a different question than the one I asked, which was: could a sane person convince him/herself with enough conviction that he/she is in fact interacting with an imaginary being to such a degree that he/she actually LOVES said being the same as a real person or, as the Christian faith demands, MORE than a real person?

I think you missed my point because you are looking for evidence that I must be wrong. I loved God, and the reason *why* is irrelevant. Whether "avoiding punishment or receiving a reward", I factually loved God despite not having any interaction with him. I didn't explain why because it wasn't important to your argument about whether or not you could love someone that you didn't interact with.

While I did receive letters and photos from my sponsor child, I didn't have any correspondence with her (because I didn't speak her language). And I obviously didn't have any correspondence with my unborn child. Again, you're trying to dig up reasons *why* but the whole point was naming examples of people that I have loved despite not interacting with them, because that was the focus of the original argument.

Now to your counterpoint about whether or not you could love a being that doesn't exist: of course you can. Love is made up of feelings coming from your brain and actions caused by your feelings, and neither of those require an actual target as compared to an imagined target. The entire world could be only a figment of your imagination (solipsism is logically consistent and impossible to prove false) and thus everyone you love could be imaginary, for all you know. The reshaping of your argument in terms of whether or not a "sane person" can do it and whether or not it fits the same degree are attempts to move the goal post. If you hate when other people do that, please don't do it.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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01-08-2013, 12:44 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2013 01:01 PM by IgniteThought.)
RE: Do Christians really love God?
Quote:StarCrash said:



I think you missed my point because you are looking for evidence that I must be wrong. I loved God, and the reason *why* is irrelevant. Whether "avoiding punishment or receiving a reward", I factually loved God despite not having any interaction with him. I didn't explain why because it wasn't important to your argument about whether or not you could love someone that you didn't interact with.....

My counter-argument, if you want to call it that (I never meant this to be a debate but a discussion) was not based on why you love the examples you provided, but how they were different from a completely imaginary being and therefore, could not be used as examples to prove that you can love something imaginary, which was my original question. In the examples you provided there was something real and tangible you could point to (and gave specific examples of the real things you could point to for each of them, while in your comment you only mentioned one), but in the case of an imaginary god, there were none. The reason why I pointed this out was that I was not satisfied with your answer and wanted to inquire further. It was, by no means, some sort of rebuttal, which why it puzzles me that you accuse me of "looking for evidence that I was wrong". If you read my comment again, I asked you many questions so you could elaborate on your points further. That was the only purpose.

I also wanted to know why you were putting god's will before your own, which was the evidence you provided to prove you really loved him. I thought it was relevant to the discussion since the willingness to do god's will could have many alternative explanations/motivations that don't include love for god. I never asked why you loved god.


Ultimately, I felt you answered a completely different question than the one I asked. The first sentence in that comment was:

Quote:"Is it possible to love someone that you can't regularly spend time with?"

That wasn't my original question. If you go back to my original comment, at the very beginning of it, you'll find the question I asked, which was;

Quote:...is it even possible for a sane person to love something imaginary (as we believe god to be) the same way as a family member, a partner, or a friend?

I didn't reshape my "argument" or moved the goal post. First of all, it is not an argument, it's a question. Second of all, while the question I asked at the end of my comment was worded differently and emphasized more on the interaction aspect of it, it was the same exact question I originally asked.

All I'm doing is asking questions. I made the mistake in my original comment of sounding like I've already reached a definitive conclusion. I shouldn't have done that because I don't have enough evidence to dismiss the idea of a Christian being able to love god and assume that it is impossible. However, my intention has always been to stimulate a discussion, and I think that is being accomplished. I've certainly learned from it and I hope to learn more. Smile
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01-08-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Do Christians really love God?
Quote:You reap what you sow. You *would* make Christians look very foolish, but I know as a "class" they are in no way represented by your fundie nonsense. If you choose to generalize due to you small exposure to reality and because I push back, that's your problem. You represent a VERY small and very limited literalistic sect/brand of your cult. I am more than well aware how much larger Christianity is than what you represent. I actually have many friends in religion. You embarrass them. They chuckled and shook their heads when I talked about you.

Again (and again) putting me down does not present facts or solve any argument. And yes, you reap what you sow.
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