Do I have this straight?.....
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23-07-2017, 10:42 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
I just wonder when does doubt become absolute certainty. I like Bertrand Russell's analogy about teapots orbiting the sun. I like to change it to teapots orbiting Jupiter but I didn't make it up. How sure am I there are no teapots orbiting Jupiter? It seems sure enough to say I am in now way agnostic about it. Theism is far more ridiculous than that. Both teapots and Jupiter actually exist. At some point, in order for language not to be stuck in the absurd, I feel comfortable saying yes I'm absolutely sure there's no god. I know it. If my knowledge is going to be disputed then the argument becomes you don't know anything. Since I'm not a philosopher from antiquity I'd rather discuss Mary Anne Vs Ginger. Since we're stuck on an Island I'm fucking both of them and Mrs. Howell.
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23-07-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 07:54 AM)MorningStar Wrote:  Am I on the right track?

You seem to be expressing it fairly well although there are multiple definitions for both agnostic and atheist and you'll get a lot of hair-splitting.

The one thing that atheists (mostly) agree on is that there's no good reason to believe in the existence of any god. Everything else is up for grabs.


Quote:All three positions require that the scientific method is the only method that can acquire "knowledge".

For me, it isn't that I would claim it is the only method but rather that it is the most reliable method we have available. I know of no other way to determine if a particular belief is reasonable or not.

You talked about faith in your intro but faith doesn't lead to knowledge, it only leads to belief. People can literally believe any claim based on faith and when faith claims are contradictory there is no independent way to differentiate between them.

You also mentioned that atheists have faith... do you have faith that leprechauns don't exist or do you not believe they exist because there's no good evidence for them? I am an a-leprechaunist in the same way that I am an a-theist; I may not be able to prove they don't exist but I have no reason to believe that they do.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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23-07-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 08:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Here's a useful quick-reference diagram (although not everyone sees it this way):

[Image: main-qimg-03de07dcf9a7a7a20aea931c6157f1dd]

There is a distinction to this graph I don't think many are aware of and that is the issue of time frame. There is the past, current and future.

I am vehemently a gnostic atheist about all past and current God/gods/god/deity/ super natural entity claims.

I am only an agnostic atheist when it comes to the future but even then really only a semantic technical sense. As Stephen Hawking said "A God is not required", so even with the future I see no reason to cling to superfluous gap answers.

But currently my position is "off" on all past and current claims.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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23-07-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
One should have a basis to believe anything, otherwise admit that you don't know or are just deciding to believe whatever comes along. That would make you an easy mark.

There is no basis to believe in any god or gods.

Thus I don't believe in any god or gods.

Also I don't have a belief that there is no god because I have no evidence of that.

"atheist" means without a god, which I am.
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23-07-2017, 11:12 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
Oh goody, yet another one of these threads.

Absolute certainty isn't possible. My intellectual position is agnostic. My personal choice in light of that position is to live as though there is no god (my reasons for that in the paragraph below). Therefore I call myself an atheist and don't parse it any farther than that.

If there's a god, it exists regardless of my belief; I can live with the idea that I may be wrong. If a god demands my worship, the only moral position (to me) is opposition and refusal.
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23-07-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
*Waves*

Hello again. Looks like you've got lots of folks eager to chat/talk/post in reposnce to you. Thumbsup

I'd just like to add a little thing carried over from your introductory post, if you don't mind?

(23-07-2017 07:54 AM)MorningStar Wrote:  In my opinion, atheists also hold a faith-based belief in the non-existence of God.

I must admit to finding the above sentence dificult to make sense of...

The wording and structure doesn't really flow well or convey its meaning very well. When I susbtitue the word 'God' for something else, the sentence meaning is still elusive. For example:

"In my opinion, a-cantileiver-ists also hold a faith-based belief in the non-existence of cantileivers."

Perhaps it's your qualifier of 'Faith-based'? Consider

I'm not sure...

Cheers. Thumbsup

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23-07-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 08:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Here's a useful quick-reference diagram (although not everyone sees it this way):

[Image: main-qimg-03de07dcf9a7a7a20aea931c6157f1dd]

What about someone, like me, who was raised in a tree and has never even heard of a god, and when he does, thinks it's just another comic book character?
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23-07-2017, 11:37 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017 12:02 PM by Deesse23.)
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 08:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Here's a useful quick-reference diagram (although not everyone sees it this way):

[Image: main-qimg-03de07dcf9a7a7a20aea931c6157f1dd]

In addition to DLjs wonderful graph:

(A)theism and (A)gnosticism arent the same category (hence the *matrix structure* of the picture):

(A)theism is a claim of belief: "I (dont) believe a god exists."
(A)gnosticism is a claim of knowledge: "I (dont) know a god exists."

Therefore you have 4 different basic combinations of (A)gnosticism and (A)theism possible to define your position (if you want/like these categories).

Edit

Quote:All three positions require that the scientific method is the only method that can acquire "knowledge".
Not necessarily and by definition, but so far the scientific method has proven to be the only reliable method we have to gather knowledge. If you have another one, even a better one, we are open to hear it form you (no shit, really!!!! We do, no irony or joke or whatever).

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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23-07-2017, 12:00 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
String atheism is the stance that the general ideas offered by major religions about God have so many logical self contradictions, problems and impossibilities that God as such can safely be examined and discarded as untrue.

So it is easy enough to be a strong atheist as regards the Biblical or Islamic definitions of God.

This has nothing to do with science really, science has left arguments about Gods to the philosophers and theologians.

Of course, many strong atheists have mixed positions on some things. It is easy enough to demonstrate that the God of Christianity is self contradictory and impossible, but harder to disprove the existence of the Easter Bunny. Ideas like omniscience and omnipotence create the contradictions that are problematic. But some theologies, such as Process Theology abandon omnipotence and omniscience as a way to try to create a God hypothesis that does not self destruct. Only to self destruct in other ways.

On the other hand, there are lots of theologies nobody much cares about. Neopaganism, Voodoo, etc. How often do we see Christian theologians debating if Neopaganism is superior to Christianity because Neopaganism is less easy to disprove?

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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23-07-2017, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017 12:16 PM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
Agnostics fundamentally misunderstand what atheism is. I always hear them say that "no one knows a god doesn't exist", but you can not believe something exists while acknowledging that you can't know "for sure" that it doesn't exist. I don't believe I will die tomorrow- that doesn't mean I know I won't die tomorrow. They present a straw man of atheism.

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