Do I have this straight?.....
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23-07-2017, 04:16 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 10:42 AM)ImFred Wrote:  At some point, in order for language not to be stuck in the absurd, I feel comfortable saying yes I'm absolutely sure there's no god. I know it.
It's a legitimate semantic shortcut, in that there's no practical difference in how it effects your decisions or behavior between knowing there's no god and strongly disbelieving in gods. However, technically, the fact remains, you can't make ANY knowledge claim about something that is outside of nature (supernatural).
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23-07-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 04:10 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  And here all this time I thought a "hard" atheist was....
oh hell never mind.
Yeah I have the sense of humor of a 13-year-old boy.

In person it tends to surprise people when it's in a grandmother-type body.

A hard atheist is good to find. Angel
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23-07-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 11:00 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 08:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Here's a useful quick-reference diagram (although not everyone sees it this way):

[Image: main-qimg-03de07dcf9a7a7a20aea931c6157f1dd]

There is a distinction to this graph I don't think many are aware of and that is the issue of time frame. There is the past, current and future.

I am vehemently a gnostic atheist about all past and current God/gods/god/deity/ super natural entity claims.

I am only an agnostic atheist when it comes to the future but even then really only a semantic technical sense. As Stephen Hawking said "A God is not required", so even with the future I see no reason to cling to superfluous gap answers.

But currently my position is "off" on all past and current claims.
That's an interesting point and I understand what you're saying here. But it is possible, since you're fallible, that you're not aware of some information or are wrong about some information you're aware of. You haven't been everywhere AND everywhen. It's highly unlikely, but possible, that you've overlooked some evidence from the past or present. Technically, what you're saying here is that your evaluation is perfect once you've made it. I don't think you intend to do that.

To me the main value of an agnostic stance toward gods is that it evades the charge of "you're an arrogant atheist" as well as the charge that your mind is closed. It provides epistemological humility that closes off that particular deflection.

Of course, any particular god-believer disbelieves in all gods other than their chosen one for exactly the same reasons we do: there's no good reason to believe. They see no evidence. The "evidence" they see for THEIR god is compelling because of confirmation bias, agency inference, and social reciprocity within their group, combined in most cases with strong emotional associations rooted in childhood and operant conditioning that began back there. So when they accuse us of "arrogance" they are actually projecting. It's pretty arrogant to claim there IS a god and it just happens to be THEIRS.

Still ... it makes it too easy for them, in my view, to allow them to dismiss the atheist position as one of offhanded and unjustified negative knowledge claims. Also, it's just wrong to claim knowledge about the unfalsifiable.
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23-07-2017, 09:44 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
Just wanted to pop in and tell everyone how much I appreciate their responses. I slept for most of the day then went to see Dunkirk. After reading this board for most the night last night, which resulted in a tad bit of sleep deprivation, then going to see Dunkirk I have to admit to some feelings of existential crisis...heh. Seriously, a lot of food for thought in your replies. I'll be pondering upon many of them tomorrow for sure.

Honestly, I came here to broaden my understanding, not any of yours. I apologize if that sounds a bit selfish. I'll get back to the questions that some of you asked as soon as I can. Might be a day or so....

Thanks again!
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23-07-2017, 09:48 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 09:44 PM)MorningStar Wrote:  Just wanted to pop in and tell everyone how much I appreciate their responses. I slept for most of the day then went to see Dunkirk. After reading this board for most the night last night, which resulted in a tad bit of sleep deprivation, then going to see Dunkirk I have to admit to some feelings of existential crisis...heh. Seriously, a lot of food for thought in your replies. I'll be pondering upon many of them tomorrow for sure.

Honestly, I came here to broaden my understanding, not any of yours. I apologize if that sounds a bit selfish. I'll get back to the questions that some of you asked as soon as I can. Might be a day or so....

Thanks again!

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23-07-2017, 10:03 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 07:54 AM)MorningStar Wrote:  Hard agnosticism - The existence of God is a question that cannot be studied scientifically so why bother with the question at all.
Hard agnosticism is the only position I can fully relate to from a purely scientific perspective along with my current ideas on at least some of God's qualities, if God exists.

If you shift your ideas on God's qualities slightly, neuroscience can be viewed as the scientific study of God. Smile

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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23-07-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 09:44 PM)MorningStar Wrote:  Just wanted to pop in and tell everyone how much I appreciate their responses. I slept for most of the day then went to see Dunkirk. After reading this board for most the night last night, which resulted in a tad bit of sleep deprivation, then going to see Dunkirk I have to admit to some feelings of existential crisis...heh. Seriously, a lot of food for thought in your replies. I'll be pondering upon many of them tomorrow for sure.

Honestly, I came here to broaden my understanding, not any of yours. I apologize if that sounds a bit selfish. I'll get back to the questions that some of you asked as soon as I can. Might be a day or so....

Thanks again!

So long as you're doing so sincerely and honestly, that's just fine. Part of the purpose of a community is to be a resource to its members. And those members who don't want to be a resource, well, don't have to be part of the thread.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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23-07-2017, 10:18 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 07:54 AM)MorningStar Wrote:  I just introduced myself in the Introduction forum and received my license to post!

I've been reading the forum all night, mostly the thread started by DarthMarth's introduction. I think I have already learned a few things (definition-wise) about atheists and agnostics. Below are a couple of statements upon my understanding. Please correct me if I'm off target.

Hard agnosticism - The existence of God is a question that cannot be studied scientifically so why bother with the question at all.
Hard agnosticism is the only position I can fully relate to from a purely scientific perspective along with my current ideas on at least some of God's qualities, if God exists.


I'm not sure why you place so much emphasis on the scientific method. That method is a good one for checking out empirical claims. I'm not sure claims that a god exists qualifies. "God" is such a poorly defined term. What would we measure or observe which would indicate a god's existence? Those who believe in a god count practically everything as evidence of gods, those who don't find no sure sign.

What is an unquestioned fact is that many, many people have believed in gods practically everywhere and for a very long time, at least as long as we've been recognizably human. You can study the belief, but why would anyone suppose the source of the belief is out there, something empirical in nature? Belief is a subjective state, why look for a 'god' anywhere else? Gods are psychic and/or cultural phenomena, look there.


(23-07-2017 07:54 AM)MorningStar Wrote:  On the other hand, soft atheism (at least as I currently understand it) accepts that God may exist and that it may be possible to study the question scientifically, but since no scientific evidence exists, soft atheists will not believe God exists.....which is somewhat different than straight up saying God does not exist, with certainty.

However, hard atheists believe that the question of God's existence can (and has) been studied scientifically and the overwhelming "evidence" is that God does not exist.

All three positions require that the scientific method is the only method that can acquire "knowledge".

Am I on the right track?

I don't think so. We all believe in things without any application of the scientific method. But if you feel the need to lean hard on science while you sort out what to believe, suit yourself.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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23-07-2017, 11:59 PM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
MorningStar Wrote:

Quote:However, hard atheists believe that the question of God's existence can (and has) been studied scientifically and the overwhelming "evidence" is that God does not exist.

I'm not aware, nor do I believe, that gods were or can be studied "scientifically". It'd be like "proving" unequivocally that leprechauns don't exist.

And in my opinion, there is no such thing as a "hard" atheist—like a pregnancy, you either is or you ain't. Tongue

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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24-07-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Do I have this straight?.....
(23-07-2017 11:59 PM)SYZ Wrote:  ...
—like a pregnancy, you either is or you ain't. Tongue

So god is like a phantom pregnancy?

Sounds about right.

Yes

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