Do I need to explain myself?
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10-03-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:09 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Market value is nonsense unless you are in the slave trade. I was speaking metaphysically, did you miss that?

Does your creed only assign value to human life as it can be bought or sold?

You are in fact incorrect. A value is attached to human life regardless of buying or selling. Each human consumes resources. Each human has political ideas. Humans affect their environment. By sending aid to Africa, politicians are putting a value on human lives, by declaring war in Iraq, politicians are valuing human lives. Human lives are currency just like money.

I also don't get what you mean by speaking metaphysically ? What do you mean? Also, please justify use of Bible to make life decisions Big Grin
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10-03-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:14 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:09 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Market value is nonsense unless you are in the slave trade. I was speaking metaphysically, did you miss that?

Does your creed only assign value to human life as it can be bought or sold?
I wanna jump in on this one, too. Of course the value of human life isn't based on how much they can be bought and sold for...theoretically. But in assuming the value of human life, especially according to religion, it is obvious that not all lives are valued the same. Children are starving, women are beaten, people are murdered. None of that is okay, but what about the instances when it is acceptable? People have killed in the name of religion...that was okay? According to your bible and the acceptance of these actions, those lives were not valuable-even metaphysically.
According to Christianity the human soul is of infinite worth. Life is debatable. As directed by the Lord, killing was ok.

Now that I've answered that, how do you set the value of human life being Atheist? Is it more valuable than other life forms? Why or why not?
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10-03-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:25 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:14 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  I wanna jump in on this one, too. Of course the value of human life isn't based on how much they can be bought and sold for...theoretically. But in assuming the value of human life, especially according to religion, it is obvious that not all lives are valued the same. Children are starving, women are beaten, people are murdered. None of that is okay, but what about the instances when it is acceptable? People have killed in the name of religion...that was okay? According to your bible and the acceptance of these actions, those lives were not valuable-even metaphysically.
According to Christianity the human soul is of infinite worth. Life is debatable. As directed by the Lord, killing was ok.

Now that I've answered that, how do you set the value of human life being Atheist? Is it more valuable than other life forms? Why or why not?
I thought we were talking about the human life, not the soul. So if life is debatable, what (according to the bible) determines the value of human life? I value all human life. I think everyone has something to offer and potential for greatness. Yes, I do also believe human life is more valuable than other life forms. We advance technology and keep the world going...what has a cat ever done for the world?
But back to this soul thing. If we are putting a value on a soul, rather than time on earth you should know that we do not believe in souls. Once we die, we rot in the ground...great fertilizer. We cannot put a value on something as silly as a soul, but life certainly does have value and I think theists have put unfair "prices" on people to advance their own agenda.

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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10-03-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:09 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Market value is nonsense unless you are in the slave trade. I was speaking metaphysically, did you miss that?

Does your creed only assign value to human life as it can be bought or sold?

You are in fact incorrect. A value is attached to human life regardless of buying or selling. Each human consumes resources. Each human has political ideas. Humans affect their environment. By sending aid to Africa, politicians are putting a value on human lives, by declaring war in Iraq, politicians are valuing human lives. Human lives are currency just like money.

I also don't get what you mean by speaking metaphysically ? What do you mean? Also, please justify use of Bible to make life decisions Big Grin
Those instances are not market value (as in free market) though, although a monetary amount can be assigned to those actions. By speaking metaphysically I mean is there inherent worth to human life in relation to other creatures, animals, or environment. If not, then you will have to explain why you are entitled to drain any resources whatsoever from this planet.
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10-03-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 12:28 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(09-03-2013 10:03 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  How cruel. It's a stereotype, but worse than that it's one that isn't true in even one case.

Oh no. He has a point. If Christians are merely human, then nothing has changed. We may look like human beings but our spirit is a different type.
Right. A spirit of the type that can ignore instructions like to "Dash the brains of children out against the rocks" from a God whom they still consider to be infinitely good.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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10-03-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
So if the LORD told you to go and knock someone over the head you'd do it ? Holy wars etc. 'Cos dear old Jehovah isn't helluva nice moral guy to most of the people he meets in the OT. Even in the NT he's keen to cook anyone who disagrees with him.

Now you say to me, "because you don't think lives are vastly valuable, you therefore are a candidate genocidal rapist killing machine", (an allegation I dispute but never mind for now), but then on the other hand, if you were to kill for the LORD, and on the scale demanded by the LORD, how is that better ? I contend that at least I'm thinking for myself. Killing might become necessary at some point but at least it'll be a decision made by me without the need to trust in some invisible third party. And to answer your allegation about genocide etc, just because I don't value it the same as you doesn't mean I want to end it - in fact the idea is so utterly distasteful that I can't guarantee that even if it *were* to become necessary that I'd be able to do it.
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10-03-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 01:31 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  fea·si·ble: Likely; probable.

Anyway, I've put on here that I took a religious studies class. That is where major doubts started to come in, but it was hard to accept my thoughts even though everything I was learning or reading increased my disbelief. It was actually when I met the first atheist I had ever met. Seeing that she was not tortured or constantly ridiculed for not believing helped me to accept atheism as an alternative. I think I was actually afraid of letting people know I didn't believe in god because I was afraid I would no longer be accepted (shallow? maybe). But seeing that it was at least semi-acceptable helped me to open up and start conversations about it. This sounds kinda similar to what I would expect a gay person in the closet to experience....?
Right. That is the great contribution to human progress of the New Atheists. The made it widely acceptable to consider being openly atheist as a viable alternative to going along to get along which was the default position of most rational people before "The God Delusion" hit the market. The analogy with gays is particularly apt.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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10-03-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:35 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 01:31 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  fea·si·ble: Likely; probable.

Anyway, I've put on here that I took a religious studies class. That is where major doubts started to come in, but it was hard to accept my thoughts even though everything I was learning or reading increased my disbelief. It was actually when I met the first atheist I had ever met. Seeing that she was not tortured or constantly ridiculed for not believing helped me to accept atheism as an alternative. I think I was actually afraid of letting people know I didn't believe in god because I was afraid I would no longer be accepted (shallow? maybe). But seeing that it was at least semi-acceptable helped me to open up and start conversations about it. This sounds kinda similar to what I would expect a gay person in the closet to experience....?
Right. That is the great contribution to human progress of the New Atheists. The made it widely acceptable to consider being openly atheist as a viable alternative to going along to get along which was the default position of most rational people before "The God Delusion" hit the market. The analogy with gays is particularly apt.
which is exactly what I was doing. Going along with the masses to get along. It's a shame that theists have such a hold on the world and the way children are raised and brainwashed. As a former Christian, I do think everything would have been a lot easier without going through the struggles of seeing everyone I know picking and choosing which virtues to hold and which ones to dismiss as outdated.

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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10-03-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:31 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Those instances are not market value (as in free market) though, although a monetary amount can be assigned to those actions. By speaking metaphysically I mean is there inherent worth to human life in relation to other creatures, animals, or environment. If not, then you will have to explain why you are entitled to drain any resources whatsoever from this planet.

Me specifically or humans in general ? 'Cos bear in mind you're also on the chopping block if we decide there's no entitlement for me to drain resources, unless you can show entitlement independent of me Smile

I don't see that anyone's really *entitled* to anything - resources or what have you. It's merely that here I am, and hey look, I have, due to circumstances and history which all took place before my birth, the ability to *take* resources for myself (or to convince other takers to give to me in exchange for trivial labour). And because I value my own life highly (not that it's worth much in general but I am a biased economic agent when buying for myself), I continue to rape the planet. *However* that is no different to you. And I recognize your right to rape the planet too. Or rather, I recognize that again due to things being set up just so, in a way which is extremely difficult for me to influence, I cannot *stop* you, so we must work together. In this I speak purely selfishly but of course there is allegiance to my tribe and culture etc. thrown into the mix too...

BTW gents and ladies these are just some ideas that I've been thinking about recently. I like this forum format because it allows us to throw ideas around freely. As it stands I think I'm making a decently convincing case, but feel free to shoot me down Smile I know it sounds pretty terrible - all this talk of valuing human lives at not too much etc. Maybe we should value them in oil barrels ? How many barrels of oil is one human worth, on average ? I'd probably put it at less than one. I mean there's not a lot of oil barrels to go around but 7 billion humans... Where was I? Oh yes, it sounds terrible but... I have this idea that this is how things work so I'm kinda interested to explore it...
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10-03-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:30 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:25 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  According to Christianity the human soul is of infinite worth. Life is debatable. As directed by the Lord, killing was ok.

Now that I've answered that, how do you set the value of human life being Atheist? Is it more valuable than other life forms? Why or why not?
I thought we were talking about the human life, not the soul. So if life is debatable, what (according to the bible) determines the value of human life? I value all human life. I think everyone has something to offer and potential for greatness. Yes, I do also believe human life is more valuable than other life forms. We advance technology and keep the world going...what has a cat ever done for the world?
But back to this soul thing. If we are putting a value on a soul, rather than time on earth you should know that we do not believe in souls. Once we die, we rot in the ground...great fertilizer. We cannot put a value on something as silly as a soul, but life certainly does have value and I think theists have put unfair "prices" on people to advance their own agenda.
Life/soul are sometimes interchangeable but I don't feel they are the same thing exactly. That's a good question that I'm not completely sure has a straightforward answer, or a quick one I can think of right now and I don't want to give you bad information. We know there is worth by the fact that we were given life by God and created in his image. I do not believe that life is as important as soul, however. We will receive new perfect bodies at resurrection. In that sense the "life" as it relates to this body is corrupt and imperfect. Interesting conversation.

My cats bring me and my family comfort. Anyone that walks in my door immediately falls for my cat. There is much value in pets.

I have to run home now to be with my family but I'd like to get back to this. Anyway, lastly do you have the same respect for unborn life, as with born children. Meaning abortion etc...?
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