Do I need to explain myself?
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10-03-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:31 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Those instances are not market value (as in free market) though, although a monetary amount can be assigned to those actions. By speaking metaphysically I mean is there inherent worth to human life in relation to other creatures, animals, or environment. If not, then you will have to explain why you are entitled to drain any resources whatsoever from this planet.

Me specifically or humans in general ? 'Cos bear in mind you're also on the chopping block if we decide there's no entitlement for me to drain resources, unless you can show entitlement independent of me Smile

I don't see that anyone's really *entitled* to anything - resources or what have you. It's merely that here I am, and hey look, I have, due to circumstances and history which all took place before my birth, the ability to *take* resources for myself (or to convince other takers to give to me in exchange for trivial labour). And because I value my own life highly (not that it's worth much in general but I am a biased economic agent when buying for myself), I continue to rape the planet. *However* that is no different to you. And I recognize your right to rape the planet too. Or rather, I recognize that again due to things being set up just so, in a way which is extremely difficult for me to influence, I cannot *stop* you, so we must work together. In this I speak purely selfishly but of course there is allegiance to my tribe and culture etc. thrown into the mix too...

BTW gents and ladies these are just some ideas that I've been thinking about recently. I like this forum format because it allows us to throw ideas around freely. As it stands I think I'm making a decently convincing case, but feel free to shoot me down Smile I know it sounds pretty terrible - all this talk of valuing human lives at not too much etc. Maybe we should value them in oil barrels ? How many barrels of oil is one human worth, on average ? I'd probably put it at less than one. I mean there's not a lot of oil barrels to go around but 7 billion humans... Where was I? Oh yes, it sounds terrible but... I have this idea that this is how things work so I'm kinda interested to explore it...
I have three children and two college degrees...that's gotta make me worth at least one barrel of oil Wink According to the bible it is okay to kill people in some instances...y'all better get your value up!! Rolleyes

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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10-03-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(09-03-2013 04:25 PM)Egor Wrote:  You basically told your family to F-off and so they ask you to explain yourself. But, like you said, you don't care.

Welcome to the lovely world of atheism.

Oh, I almost forgot...you will go to hell for your beliefs. You willfully reject Christ--so you will go to hell. If you die tomorrow, you go to hell. That's a certainty. Drinking Beverage

When will you atheists ever get it; it's the only reason we have a mind--to believe in Christ or reject Christ.

Everything else is incidental. Angel
Right. To a true believer (equivalent to willful non-thinker) "I don't agree with you!" is exactly the same as "Fuck off!" ... and religious people still think atheists are arrogant! No wonder it is so difficult to have a calm, rational debate with most christians. No wonder Kellyrm doesn't want to talk about it with her aunt. When will Christians ever get it.. the only reason we have a mind is because before we developed civilization, the stupider amongst us died, leaving the smarter ones to have kids who, under that same selection pressure, gradually got smarter over the hundreds of thousands of generations since we had a common ancestor with Chimpanzees. Fanatical deliberately non-thinking Christians owe their lives to the contributions of thousands of great thinkers who made it possible for them to survive in society. In a group of primitive hunter gatherers, people who steadfastly refused to think would starve or be killed by their fellow tribe members for threatening the survival of all of them. Nobody is going to hell, some are just creating hell in their one and only short life for themselves and all who have to interact with them by clinging to absurd, anti-human beliefs and demanding that everyone else follow them.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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10-03-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:50 PM)ufo42 Wrote:  
(09-03-2013 04:25 PM)Egor Wrote:  You basically told your family to F-off and so they ask you to explain yourself. But, like you said, you don't care.

Welcome to the lovely world of atheism.

Oh, I almost forgot...you will go to hell for your beliefs. You willfully reject Christ--so you will go to hell. If you die tomorrow, you go to hell. That's a certainty. Drinking Beverage

When will you atheists ever get it; it's the only reason we have a mind--to believe in Christ or reject Christ.

Everything else is incidental. Angel
Right. To a true believer (equivalent to willful non-thinker) "I don't agree with you!" is exactly the same as "Fuck off!" ... and religious people still think atheists are arrogant! No wonder it is so difficult to have a calm, rational debate with most christians. No wonder Kellyrm doesn't want to talk about it with her aunt. When will Christians ever get it.. the only reason we have a mind is because before we developed civilization, the stupider amongst us died, leaving the smarter ones to have kids who, under that same selection pressure, gradually got smarter over the hundreds of thousands of generations since we had a common ancestor with Chimpanzees. Fanatical deliberately non-thinking Christians owe their lives to the contributions of thousands of great thinkers who made it possible for them to survive in society. In a group of primitive hunter gatherers, people who steadfastly refused to think would starve or be killed by their fellow tribe members for threatening the survival of all of them. Nobody is going to hell, some are just creating hell in their one and only short life for themselves and all who have to interact with them by clinging to absurd, anti-human beliefs and demanding that everyone else follow them.
So survival of the fittest should eliminate the non-thinking christians? I suddenly don't have as much fear for my children's future Smile

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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10-03-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:31 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Those instances are not market value (as in free market) though, although a monetary amount can be assigned to those actions. By speaking metaphysically I mean is there inherent worth to human life in relation to other creatures, animals, or environment. If not, then you will have to explain why you are entitled to drain any resources whatsoever from this planet.

Me specifically or humans in general ? 'Cos bear in mind you're also on the chopping block if we decide there's no entitlement for me to drain resources, unless you can show entitlement independent of me Smile

I don't see that anyone's really *entitled* to anything - resources or what have you. It's merely that here I am, and hey look, I have, due to circumstances and history which all took place before my birth, the ability to *take* resources for myself (or to convince other takers to give to me in exchange for trivial labour). And because I value my own life highly (not that it's worth much in general but I am a biased economic agent when buying for myself), I continue to rape the planet. *However* that is no different to you. And I recognize your right to rape the planet too. Or rather, I recognize that again due to things being set up just so, in a way which is extremely difficult for me to influence, I cannot *stop* you, so we must work together. In this I speak purely selfishly but of course there is allegiance to my tribe and culture etc. thrown into the mix too...

BTW gents and ladies these are just some ideas that I've been thinking about recently. I like this forum format because it allows us to throw ideas around freely. As it stands I think I'm making a decently convincing case, but feel free to shoot me down Smile I know it sounds pretty terrible - all this talk of valuing human lives at not too much etc. Maybe we should value them in oil barrels ? How many barrels of oil is one human worth, on average ? I'd probably put it at less than one. I mean there's not a lot of oil barrels to go around but 7 billion humans... Where was I? Oh yes, it sounds terrible but... I have this idea that this is how things work so I'm kinda interested to explore it...
Gotta run, quickly though the "might makes right" thing is what gets us into situations like political prisoners and slavery. Which deconstructs your belief of no inherent worth of human life. Interesting conversation.
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10-03-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:50 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  
(10-03-2013 02:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  Me specifically or humans in general ? 'Cos bear in mind you're also on the chopping block if we decide there's no entitlement for me to drain resources, unless you can show entitlement independent of me Smile

I don't see that anyone's really *entitled* to anything - resources or what have you. It's merely that here I am, and hey look, I have, due to circumstances and history which all took place before my birth, the ability to *take* resources for myself (or to convince other takers to give to me in exchange for trivial labour). And because I value my own life highly (not that it's worth much in general but I am a biased economic agent when buying for myself), I continue to rape the planet. *However* that is no different to you. And I recognize your right to rape the planet too. Or rather, I recognize that again due to things being set up just so, in a way which is extremely difficult for me to influence, I cannot *stop* you, so we must work together. In this I speak purely selfishly but of course there is allegiance to my tribe and culture etc. thrown into the mix too...

BTW gents and ladies these are just some ideas that I've been thinking about recently. I like this forum format because it allows us to throw ideas around freely. As it stands I think I'm making a decently convincing case, but feel free to shoot me down Smile I know it sounds pretty terrible - all this talk of valuing human lives at not too much etc. Maybe we should value them in oil barrels ? How many barrels of oil is one human worth, on average ? I'd probably put it at less than one. I mean there's not a lot of oil barrels to go around but 7 billion humans... Where was I? Oh yes, it sounds terrible but... I have this idea that this is how things work so I'm kinda interested to explore it...
I have three children and two college degrees...that's gotta make me worth at least one barrel of oil Wink According to the bible it is okay to kill people in some instances...y'all better get your value up!! Rolleyes
That is OT applicable only to certain people and they are you and me or anyone else alive. You are reading out of context, but you know that.
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10-03-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:54 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Gotta run, quickly though the "might makes right" thing is what gets us into situations like political prisoners and slavery. Which deconstructs your belief of no inherent worth of human life. Interesting conversation.

I'm not talking about what might be nice and so on, I'm interested in what *is*. And what *is*, is basically might makes right. And i case you hadn't noticed, political prisoners and slavery are very much part of out "modern" world Dodgy Also endorsed by the Bible including the new testament Big Grin Riddle me that.
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10-03-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:54 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Gotta run, quickly though the "might makes right" thing is what gets us into situations like political prisoners and slavery. Which deconstructs your belief of no inherent worth of human life. Interesting conversation.

Perhaps MrBuddy is confused and is unable to fathom that many people are quite able to live happily without belief or faith and maybe this is why he/she seems to continually assign these strange, unfounded assumptions to you, Morondog. Whatevs. Dodgy

***

Great post Kellyrm. Thumbsup
If you are constantly questioned about your lack of faith, you are justified in questioning back if you feel like it. If you don't feel like it, you are also completely justified in letting others know that you are an adult human being, responsible for your own life and the lives of your children and no one's "concern" or judgement will alter this fact. No further explanation is necessary.

Frankly, sounds like a power trip to me. Your life is your life and you are free to live it and raise your children the way you see fit. Ha - sadly, Ufo's christee elimination scenario probably won't be happening anytime soon... evolution takes aeons. Damnit, there's always a catch. Wink

Anyway Kellyrm, Ufo42, Mrbuddy4413... everyone...

Smile Welcome to the forum.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-03-2013, 05:20 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 02:42 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(09-03-2013 10:03 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  How cruel. It's a stereotype, but worse than that it's one that isn't true in even one case.
*facepalm* It's not cruel! Christians are humans of course, I don't say otherwise. But when we atheists talk to them, it doesn't get through.

I think the main point here was that it was a stereotype, as in defining a group based on a prejudiced attitude. Even if it's true of some Christians or even most Christians, it certainly isn't true of all Christians. And I've made incredible efforts to get atheists to see the difference between "theist" and "irrational". They may intersect at times, but sadly so does the grouping of "atheist" and "irrational". Irrationality is what causes close-minded and stubborn thinking, not theism.

It's not cruel when you're describing somebody who fits that (just honest), but cruel to those who don't fit your prejudiced view of Christians.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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10-03-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 05:20 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I think the main point here was that it was a stereotype, as in defining a group based on a prejudiced attitude. Even if it's true of some Christians or even most Christians, it certainly isn't true of all Christians. And I've made incredible efforts to get atheists to see the difference between "theist" and "irrational". They may intersect at times, but sadly so does the grouping of "atheist" and "irrational". Irrationality is what causes close-minded and stubborn thinking, not theism.

It's not cruel when you're describing somebody who fits that (just honest), but cruel to those who don't fit your prejudiced view of Christians.
I usually don't care about people's Christianity, it typically tells me nothing about the person. It tells me about their parents. Most of Christians didn't choose their faith, they were indoctrinated into it sooner than they had any mental firewall. It was copied into them right with the firmware. I think it's sad, but this is also why it has nothing to do with that person's rationality, I wouldn't hold that against anyone. They commonly grow up to be rational as all normal people, but Christianity is there to stay. It may resurface in times of crisis and the person will do something Christian from time to time - visit a church, have a prayer, baptize a baby, vote for republicans... Or have an irrational, stereotypical reaction when meeting an atheist.
See, the religious mind virus controls only as much of us as we allow it. I have it in me as well. If we control ourselves, if we have a wholesome life of our own, we can be pretty normal people. The greater personalities we are, the less isms we hold, the more we act instead of reacting by the stereotypes.

Organized religion may be a protection for fragile personalities. It's a protection from harsh realities and dangerous thoughts. But normal people outgrow it pretty soon, it's a vestige that falls off in college. It's good to try atheism once in a while, it purifies the mind of such inherited clutter.
However, I recognize another kind of faith or theism, based on deep agnosticism and pursuit of experience and transcendent revelation. This is something I approve of all across faiths and non-faiths. I also recognize people who do not have the experience, but in effect they have a set of values as if they went through it. Such people don't need to explain themselves to me.

Sorry for the general all-aroundness of my posts. I am de facto in a state of deep meditation when I sit, think and write. I might see things clearer then, but also interrelated and I can't just leave it out.
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10-03-2013, 10:11 PM
RE: Do I need to explain myself?
(10-03-2013 07:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Organized religion may be a protection for fragile personalities. It's a protection from harsh realities and dangerous thoughts. But normal people outgrow it pretty soon, it's a vestige that falls off in college.

I love college for this reason (among others). College is the first time that many people have a chance to get exposure to different opinions, and that's when they start to question if they were right or wrong all along. Plus, they don't have the home indoctrination anymore (unless they're commuting from home or enrolled in online courses).

Also, if you're lucky, college teaches you philosophy. I've taken two courses in ethics and one in logic, and I imagine they were less of a struggle for me than for my Christian classmates.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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