Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
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24-11-2012, 03:19 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(24-11-2012 03:08 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(23-11-2012 01:58 PM)Luminon Wrote:  We are more than creative enough in peace. War only speeds up creativity, because it's an emergency so there's increased funding, bianco chheck from governments or even no money requirements whatsoever, resources are confiscated directly for production. Also, competition belongs to sports, it is otherwise a very inefficient method. It produces just one winner and wastes effort on making others lose.
War is actually simple (not easy) to remove from humanity. War follows certain causes. All we need is to change into such a kind of society in which such causes are not present. If we do it, wars will not occur. There is no god of war that causes wars about whom we can't do anything.
Among the several steps needed is global sharing of resources, empowerment of women and a simple "attack the attacker" policy. Plus of course a fair public forum that allows to negotiate any kind of problems without violence.


Can you name an era in humanity's history in which we were peaceful? We have always been engaged in conflict, in war, in a some form of militaristic threat. Every place on the globe has been involved in war for nearly every year it has been on this Earth. America, the world's technological capital, has been engaged in wars constantly, external or internal, for its 250 year existence.

It is no simple task to remove war, for if it were, it would have been done already. You think it is as simple as changing our society? How do you propose we change it? "All" we need to do? You make such an evolution sound simple, but I assure you it is not. You would not only have to change society, but remove the long-time feuds and hatreds many nations have for each other. Good luck getting India and Pakistan to demilitarize their borders.

(23-11-2012 01:58 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Every time you have an idea, try to imagine what would it be if everyone acted upon it, not just one nation or one person. In this case, there is such a thing as international law. It is our concern, because Israel will not commit just a little local genocide, "acceptable" as it might seem to you. Israel is a danger to stability in the whole region and the world, it has nuclear bombs and it threatens other states like Iran, that is pressured into nuclear armament.


Did I say it was acceptable? I said it is none of our concern. Yes, the nation has nuclear weapons, but give them some credit. They are not irrational, and they know the consequences of the use of such weapons. Iran's securing of nuclear arms is, in their view, an insurance policy. In some ways it is, but when nearly the entire world knows precisely what the weapons do, no one is willing to use them (with the exception of Islamic extremists).
nobody is willing to use nuclear weapons except for islamic extremists? How many times has nukes been used who used them?

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24-11-2012, 03:25 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
So Israel bombs health centers, youth centers, schools and media centers and basic infrastructure of Gaza and somehow they were defending themselves?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war...en/5312787
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24-11-2012, 03:28 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
As I have said, both sides are pissed at each other. Let them take care of their own fights.

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24-11-2012, 03:30 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
Quote:Since 2006, the United States has been training, equipping, and funding the Palestinian Authority's security forces, which have been cooperating with Israel at unprecedented levels in the West Bank to quell supporters of Hamas, the main Palestinian Islamist group that opposes direct negotiations with Israel.[110] The United States government has spent over 500 million building and training the Palestinian National Security Forces and Presidential Guard.[110] The IDF believes the US-trained forces will soon be capable of "overrunning small IDF outposts and isolated Israeli communities" in the event of a conflict.[195]

Both sides have groups unwilling to sign treaties.

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24-11-2012, 03:32 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
Both sides have religious extremists.

The only difference between the two is that you find Israel's attacks unwarranted. I find the entire conflict, for both sides, boring and stupid. Capish?

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24-11-2012, 09:26 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(24-11-2012 03:19 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 03:08 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Can you name an era in humanity's history in which we were peaceful? We have always been engaged in conflict, in war, in a some form of militaristic threat. Every place on the globe has been involved in war for nearly every year it has been on this Earth. America, the world's technological capital, has been engaged in wars constantly, external or internal, for its 250 year existence.

It is no simple task to remove war, for if it were, it would have been done already. You think it is as simple as changing our society? How do you propose we change it? "All" we need to do? You make such an evolution sound simple, but I assure you it is not. You would not only have to change society, but remove the long-time feuds and hatreds many nations have for each other. Good luck getting India and Pakistan to demilitarize their borders.



Did I say it was acceptable? I said it is none of our concern. Yes, the nation has nuclear weapons, but give them some credit. They are not irrational, and they know the consequences of the use of such weapons. Iran's securing of nuclear arms is, in their view, an insurance policy. In some ways it is, but when nearly the entire world knows precisely what the weapons do, no one is willing to use them (with the exception of Islamic extremists).
nobody is willing to use nuclear weapons except for islamic extremists? How many times has nukes been used who used them?

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Actually, no one has used nuclear weapons. The U.S. has used two atomic weapons.

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24-11-2012, 09:29 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(24-11-2012 09:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 03:19 AM)I and I Wrote:  nobody is willing to use nuclear weapons except for islamic extremists? How many times has nukes been used who used them?

Next
Actually, no one has used nuclear weapons. The U.S. has used two atomic weapons.
actually no one has used any current weapons since it normally takes more than one person to operate them.

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24-11-2012, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2012 03:10 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(24-11-2012 03:08 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Can you name an era in humanity's history in which we were peaceful? We have always been engaged in conflict, in war, in a some form of militaristic threat. Every place on the globe has been involved in war for nearly every year it has been on this Earth. America, the world's technological capital, has been engaged in wars constantly, external or internal, for its 250 year existence.

It is no simple task to remove war, for if it were, it would have been done already. You think it is as simple as changing our society? How do you propose we change it? "All" we need to do? You make such an evolution sound simple, but I assure you it is not. You would not only have to change society, but remove the long-time feuds and hatreds many nations have for each other. Good luck getting India and Pakistan to demilitarize their borders.
I can't give you an example of a historical time when we haven't been in a war, because there never was such a thing as "we". There always were only "us" and "them". That's OK, because I can't give you an example of a time like today either. There never was such a historical period like today. Things like global communication, trade, travel and culture are entirely new, impossible until now. And they helped to change the society, more than we realize. When I study the history, me and the classmates are amazed how reactionary our ancestors were. There were some good ethical ideas, but they never had to chance to go mainstream, like today.
There wasn't the technology of globalization, education, living standards... and the culture that grows out of them. Now there are these things and this is why only today we have a real chance of achieving world peace.

The problem is, to get something better and new, you have to sacrifice something older and worse, but very dear to you. Some things we just can't have together, like some guy from middle East said, we can't pour new wine into old bottles. And so similarly, we can't have global peace and yet have extreme economic superiority and inferiority, extreme difference in living standard, buying power, access to resources, technologies, education and so on. That just won't work. This situation of today is comparable to a full-scale global war, downright WW3, it's a catastrophe, Armageddon come true, I mean for the about half of humanity that's involved in it, not us two. And it holds us back, as long as there is this inequality, we waste extreme amounts of resources on armament, more than during arms race of the Cold war. And into that war I include the economic wars. The big business that "wins" by wasting 50% of all food in USA and making USA consume 24% of world's electricity, almost 5 times as much of its share. That should also be included in our considerations.

(24-11-2012 03:08 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Did I say it was acceptable? I said it is none of our concern. Yes, the nation has nuclear weapons, but give them some credit. They are not irrational, and they know the consequences of the use of such weapons. Iran's securing of nuclear arms is, in their view, an insurance policy. In some ways it is, but when nearly the entire world knows precisely what the weapons do, no one is willing to use them (with the exception of Islamic extremists).
Yep. The leaders of Israel are rational, they wouldn't use their nukes. But they happily threaten the irrational extremists of Iran and make raids on it and so press it into nuclear armament. And will probably continue escalating the hostilities until what, Muslims use the bomb? The most rational thing to do would be to stick to the oldest possible agreed Israel borders, instead of expanding illegally and rounding up the last Palestinian settlements.

Anyway, the "none of our concern" argument isn't much sound, as long as the major global conflicts are caused or greatly influenced by the U.S. Just remember the south American dictators that U.S. appointed, how it supported Taliban against Soviets. Even Saddam Hussein was an agent in his career. Then remember Congo and its brutal conflict for the stuff that iPhones and iPads are made of. And we know the Israel. I'd say the only major conflict U.S. has nothing to do with is the eastern Europe mess and that's no reason to leave it alone. The point is, U.S. has a huge impact on the world no matter what. To turn away would be hypocrital, but to act alone is ruthless. It needs a huge foreign policy and internal changes to curb that influence, but it must be strictly multi-lateral. The only solution is such an internal cooperation as never seen before. And not for any bullshit like war on terror, that kills a few hundred people per year tops. I mean a war on hunger and disease, things that kill 10 million people per year by direct effects alone and make living hell for others.

(24-11-2012 03:28 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  As I have said, both sides are pissed at each other. Let them take care of their own fights.
Wonderful idea! I totally agree, it's not our problem. Let's withdraw all U.S. support and funding! It's none of our concern that Jews really want their magical Bibleland and don't want to share it. Maybe we could even get back some of the 15 million dollars that Israel gets daily.

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25-11-2012, 05:13 AM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I can't give you an example of a historical time when we haven't been in a war, because there never was such a thing as "we". There always were only "us" and "them". That's OK, because I can't give you an example of a time like today either. There never was such a historical period like today. Things like global communication, trade, travel and culture are entirely new, impossible until now. And they helped to change the society, more than we realize. When I study the history, me and the classmates are amazed how reactionary our ancestors were. There were some good ethical ideas, but they never had to chance to go mainstream, like today.
There wasn't the technology of globalization, education, living standards... and the culture that grows out of them. Now there are these things and this is why only today we have a real chance of achieving world peace.

Methods of communication have changed, attitudes may have changed, but the core of humanity has not changed.

(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The problem is, to get something better and new, you have to sacrifice something older and worse, but very dear to you. Some things we just can't have together, like some guy from middle East said, we can't pour new wine into old bottles. And so similarly, we can't have global peace and yet have extreme economic superiority and inferiority, extreme difference in living standard, buying power, access to resources, technologies, education and so on. That just won't work. This situation of today is comparable to a full-scale global war, downright WW3, it's a catastrophe, Armageddon come true, I mean for the about half of humanity that's involved in it, not us two. And it holds us back, as long as there is this inequality, we waste extreme amounts of resources on armament, more than during arms race of the Cold war. And into that war I include the economic wars. The big business that "wins" by wasting 50% of all food in USA and making USA consume 24% of world's electricity, almost 5 times as much of its share. That should also be included in our considerations.

Excellent. You have again told me the obvious. Now, tell me how you propose to change it.

(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yep. The leaders of Israel are rational, they wouldn't use their nukes. But they happily threaten the irrational extremists of Iran and make raids on it and so press it into nuclear armament. And will probably continue escalating the hostilities until what, Muslims use the bomb? The most rational thing to do would be to stick to the oldest possible agreed Israel borders, instead of expanding illegally and rounding up the last Palestinian settlements.

Why the Muslims would use the bomb? I will give credit where credit is due, and I am sure the Iranians know they would lose far more than they would gain if they use it.

(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Anyway, the "none of our concern" argument isn't much sound, as long as the major global conflicts are caused or greatly influenced by the U.S. Just remember the south American dictators that U.S. appointed, how it supported Taliban against Soviets. Even Saddam Hussein was an agent in his career. Then remember Congo and its brutal conflict for the stuff that iPhones and iPads are made of. And we know the Israel. I'd say the only major conflict U.S. has nothing to do with is the eastern Europe mess and that's no reason to leave it alone. The point is, U.S. has a huge impact on the world no matter what. To turn away would be hypocrital, but to act alone is ruthless. It needs a huge foreign policy and internal changes to curb that influence, but it must be strictly multi-lateral. The only solution is such an internal cooperation as never seen before. And not for any bullshit like war on terror, that kills a few hundred people per year tops. I mean a war on hunger and disease, things that kill 10 million people per year by direct effects alone and make living hell for others.

Then hypocrisy shall be the name of the game. You think that all the mess the U.S has created will be fixed? You think the United States will fix it? You have a lot to learn.

(24-11-2012 02:55 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Wonderful idea! I totally agree, it's not our problem. Let's withdraw all U.S. support and funding! It's none of our concern that Jews really want their magical Bibleland and don't want to share it. Maybe we could even get back some of the 15 million dollars that Israel gets daily.

Agreed.

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25-11-2012, 07:30 PM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
Quote:You may be enthusiastic about science, but you seem to disregard the
people as a subject. (all internet skeptics have a tendency to that)
Nations want to expand. Which is bad. Let's study this phenomenon. Why
do they need to expand and how do we prevent it? Is it just population
pressure or is it a religious thing? Population pressure can be helped
by empowerment of women and demographic revolution. If it's some leaders
keeping the people uneducated and manipulated, there must be other
methods.



I don't see any social science enthusiasts around. I'm so ignorant about
society, I don't see scientific development of a better decision-making
(political) system. If people can design a computer chip with an
optimal flow of electricity, why can't they design a govenrment system
with an optimal flow of power? I don't see a science of activism, or
even organizing a grassroots revolution and democratizing the state. I
don't see a science of communicating ideas in a way that bypasses
fanatical closed-mindedness. What about a study of social bonding
(goodness, charity) and factors that cause greed and alienation? What
about a market, that would apply such findings into the practice? Why
politicians read Keynes and Hayek, but not Maslow and Skinner?



Where's the problem, don't you think the scientific method can be applied to these questions? Did it ever occur to you?

This is a false assumption that nations want to expand.
Some do sure, but most don't.
In fact take Britain for example, in the 80's it more or less completely abandoned it's colonies.

Countries are interested in expanding their interests, ie: USA has an interest in putting USA friendly governments in power (just like any other country. Hell, New Zealand has an interest in assuring that Pacific Island nations have a government that is cooperative with ours. We provide aid to them and so we have the power to assure that happens.) but that isn't the same as expanding, as in say USA conquer Mexico.

What the fuck does this even have to do with what i said anyway?
Hell what did I even say, I don't even remember what this about anymore.

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