Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
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26-11-2012, 12:50 PM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(25-11-2012 05:13 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Methods of communication have changed, attitudes may have changed, but the core of humanity has not changed.
What is the core of humanity and how did you find out that it has not changed?

(25-11-2012 05:13 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Excellent. You have again told me the obvious. Now, tell me how you propose to change it.

The people need to be educated on what is really wrong with the world (not that Illuminati bullshit) and what is the solution. Interest-free economy, at least. Abolition of the financial industry, which contributes nothing yet has the biggest "GDP" on the planet. Nationalization and global barter of excessive industrial resources, instead of trading them on stock markets. When people adopt these ideas, they will demand their manifestation. Gradually, politicians will have to follow and do their job. Basically, their job is to make up legally binding agreements out of thin air and stick with them. Additionally, they might put two and two together and see if this proposal is more profitable than being held back by still growing military expenses and financial crises of deregulation and greed.
I believe there are many experts in the world who are well qualified to analyze and write down new arrangement of the world, social, economical, political, legal. If they see a sufficient public call for this kind of work, they'll seize the opportunity.
I also believe that the majority of people are not content with the state of world affairs, not even the privileged white middle class men. If people get informed that the current problems are man-made and solvable, this discontent will change into an expression of will. Politicians will have to follow this will.

(25-11-2012 05:13 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Why the Muslims would use the bomb? I will give credit where credit is due, and I am sure the Iranians know they would lose far more than they would gain if they use it.
Iranian government would most probably not use the bomb. However, their operations of obtaining nuclear materials would make the bomb much more accessible to some truly crazy Muslim extremists, willing to die. Easier to get the bomb from fellow Muslims than from a highly secure U.S. facility. Or perhaps they could just break into some old rusty anchored Russian cruiser and scoop up some plutonium from the reactor.

(25-11-2012 05:13 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Then hypocrisy shall be the name of the game. You think that all the mess the U.S has created will be fixed? You think the United States will fix it? You have a lot to learn.
Yes, I'm currently still learning about the state of things. I'm only confident about what should and shouldn't be done, about the ideal state of things toward which we must work, not about the reality of international affairs. But as I said, if people express their will collectively, they may set into motion another full-scale war, or perhaps jihad. The word jihad does not mean holy war as GWB would like you to think, it means an effort, a quest with full determination. If we can go into war to kill people and blow up things, we can spend our resources just as much on a "war" against poverty and environmental pollution.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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26-11-2012, 01:39 PM
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(26-11-2012 12:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  What is the core of humanity and how did you find out that it has not changed?

War and violent conflict is something that will always be with us.

(26-11-2012 12:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The people need to be educated on what is really wrong with the world (not that Illuminati bullshit) and what is the solution. Interest-free economy, at least. Abolition of the financial industry, which contributes nothing yet has the biggest "GDP" on the planet. Nationalization and global barter of excessive industrial resources, instead of trading them on stock markets. When people adopt these ideas, they will demand their manifestation. Gradually, politicians will have to follow and do their job. Basically, their job is to make up legally binding agreements out of thin air and stick with them. Additionally, they might put two and two together and see if this proposal is more profitable than being held back by still growing military expenses and financial crises of deregulation and greed.
I believe there are many experts in the world who are well qualified to analyze and write down new arrangement of the world, social, economical, political, legal. If they see a sufficient public call for this kind of work, they'll seize the opportunity.
I also believe that the majority of people are not content with the state of world affairs, not even the privileged white middle class men. If people get informed that the current problems are man-made and solvable, this discontent will change into an expression of will. Politicians will have to follow this will.

You keep telling me what needs to be done. I am asking how you propose we should do it. How would you implement education reforms in order to persuade those who would remain opposed to them? How would you lure the financial industry into collapse without causing an economic crisis? How? How? How?

(26-11-2012 12:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Iranian government would most probably not use the bomb. However, their operations of obtaining nuclear materials would make the bomb much more accessible to some truly crazy Muslim extremists, willing to die. Easier to get the bomb from fellow Muslims than from a highly secure U.S. facility. Or perhaps they could just break into some old rusty anchored Russian cruiser and scoop up some plutonium from the reactor.

The Iranian government would sooner let the Israelis brutally slaughter the militants who acquire their bombs before they let the rest of the Arab world snatch its power away in an attempt to quell the crisis.

(26-11-2012 12:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes, I'm currently still learning about the state of things. I'm only confident about what should and shouldn't be done, about the ideal state of things toward which we must work, not about the reality of international affairs. But as I said, if people express their will collectively, they may set into motion another full-scale war, or perhaps jihad. The word jihad does not mean holy war as GWB would like you to think, it means an effort, a quest with full determination. If we can go into war to kill people and blow up things, we can spend our resources just as much on a "war" against poverty and environmental pollution.

I am telling you why it is more difficult to start a "war" against poverty and pollution than it is to start a violent conflict.

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27-11-2012, 03:13 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2012 05:19 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Do Israeli citizens support a fascist racist government or are they democratic?
(26-11-2012 01:39 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(26-11-2012 12:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  What is the core of humanity and how did you find out that it has not changed?
War and violent conflict is something that will always be with us.
You sure said that already, but what is the cause? People don't get up away from their work and families to get killed just for no reason. So what is that secret? While you're at it, you might also tell the story of how did you form this opinion on a flawed human nature. Is that a leftover of childhood Biblical indoctrination or watching too much world news?

(26-11-2012 01:39 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You keep telling me what needs to be done. I am asking how you propose we should do it. How would you implement education reforms in order to persuade those who would remain opposed to them? How would you lure the financial industry into collapse without causing an economic crisis? How? How? How?
Unfortunately, it seems it all boils down to the media. Without media, everyone's thinking they're alone in it. Media create a great illusion of credibility, but they (don't) publish whatever their owners think they can get away with. Even the most credible ones mostly portray the political dance, how politicians exchange chairs back and forth once per four years and call it democracy.

Perhaps media are crucial. If we can't get our message into them, we need to spread it on our own. You know what? The film Zeitgeist Addendum did the job for me. The first Zeitgeist was crap, but the Addendum was brilliant in communicating two basic things. Firstly, what is wrong with the current system, unpayable ever growing money/debt supply, privatized Federal reserve bank and so on. Secondly, that there is this engineer Jacque Fresco, who designed a better civilization than we have, that eliminates scarcity and all scarcity-based problems, including so-called human nature. Fresco is not just an engineer, he also has a great insight into people's behavior and reasons behind it.
It does not have to be a systematic education, but simply raising awareness plus basic facts. My sources praise greatly the power of an informed public opinion.

As for the collapse of financial industry, it is doing the best job to fall completely and utterly on its own. In past 10 years they did not make a single rational decision. Instead they connect banks and systems together, unite currencies, abandon golden standard, use oil standard (and then they burn oil), pour more and more money into the system and don't fix the holes. Maybe it prolongs the agony, but when the end comes, there will not be a money-user not pissed off at the whole money idea. Bad people's money will not be worth enough to bribe politicians and humanity will be free for the first time from lobbyism Wink

(26-11-2012 01:39 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The Iranian government would sooner let the Israelis brutally slaughter the militants who acquire their bombs before they let the rest of the Arab world snatch its power away in an attempt to quell the crisis.
Well, if only there was enough difference between aggressive fanatics and the general population. Given enough pressure and injustice, these two groups become basically the same.
But still, it shows a wonderful human ability to quell violent desires of using the nuclear bomb. Humanity successfully re-orients itself from the danger of a large-scale war, towards the replacement of a large-scale economic war and commercialization. If only the latter would not be more dangerous than the nukes.

(26-11-2012 01:39 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I am telling you why it is more difficult to start a "war" against poverty and pollution than it is to start a violent conflict.
It is more diffcult, but it's also necessary, if we want to stay on this planet. Biosphere is a fragile thing and too much warfare, economic or otherwise, will destroy it. So as you understand, I very much want to live and reincarnate on this planet, so I can't accept simple claims about how human nature is bad. I find that very irresponsible and non-constructive. Why don't you just say "I don't know what is human nature", so we can start learning about it? I don't know how about you, but I plan to study sociology for that reason. (also because I want at least a Master's degree)

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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