Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
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25-07-2017, 07:17 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 06:53 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(25-07-2017 06:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's how the ancient mind worked. It's full of hate and vengeance.

Reminded me of Ingersoll, Bucky:

"The idea of hell was born of ignorance, brutality, fear, cowardice, and revenge. This idea testifies that our remote ancestors were the lowest beasts. Only from dens, lairs, and caves, only from mouths filled with cruel fangs, only from hearts of fear and hatred, only from the conscience of hunger and lust, only from the lowest and most debased could come this most cruel, heartless and bestial of all dogmas."

Funny how our gods evolve exactly as fast (or slow) as the societies that worship them. Weird, eh? Drinking Beverage

Unfortunately, the evolution is slower than we think.


Tertullian :
"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration?
what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?-as I see in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those,
too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted
the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride
they raged against the followers of Christ.
What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their
followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure."

Augustine :
"But in what way shall the good go out to see the punishment of the wicked? Are they to leave their happy abodes by a bodily movement, and proceed to the places of punishment, so as to witness the torments of the wicked in their bodily presence? Certainly not; but they shall go out by knowledge…For those who shall be in torment shall not know what is going on within the joy of the Lord; but they
who shall enter into that joy shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. Therefore it is said, "They shall go out," because they shall know what is done by those who are without. For if the prophets were able to know things that had not yet happened, by means of that indwelling of God in their minds, limited though it was, shall not the immortal saints know things that have already happened, when God shall be all in all?

Aquinas : "Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude…Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant
thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them."

Jeremy Taylor, 1613, English Bishop of the Church of England
"Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before
their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes
in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst."

FYI, "God is love". Laugh out loadLaugh out load

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Unfortunately, the evolution is slower than we think.


Tertullian :
"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration?
what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?-as I see in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those,
too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted
the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride
they raged against the followers of Christ.
What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their
followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure."

Augustine :
"But in what way shall the good go out to see the punishment of the wicked? Are they to leave their happy abodes by a bodily movement, and proceed to the places of punishment, so as to witness the torments of the wicked in their bodily presence? Certainly not; but they shall go out by knowledge…For those who shall be in torment shall not know what is going on within the joy of the Lord; but they
who shall enter into that joy shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. Therefore it is said, "They shall go out," because they shall know what is done by those who are without. For if the prophets were able to know things that had not yet happened, by means of that indwelling of God in their minds, limited though it was, shall not the immortal saints know things that have already happened, when God shall be all in all?

Aquinas : "Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude…Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant
thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them."

Jeremy Taylor, 1613, English Bishop of the Church of England
"Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before
their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes
in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst."

FYI, "God is love". Laugh out loadLaugh out load

Don't forget good ol' Jonathan Edwards, author of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. I'd quote him, but really I think everyone just has to read the whole sermon to believe it. He preached this to children, too.
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25-07-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Unfortunately, the evolution is slower than we think.


Tertullian :
"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration?
what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?-as I see in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those,
too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted
the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride
they raged against the followers of Christ.
What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their
followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure."

Augustine :
"But in what way shall the good go out to see the punishment of the wicked? Are they to leave their happy abodes by a bodily movement, and proceed to the places of punishment, so as to witness the torments of the wicked in their bodily presence? Certainly not; but they shall go out by knowledge…For those who shall be in torment shall not know what is going on within the joy of the Lord; but they
who shall enter into that joy shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. Therefore it is said, "They shall go out," because they shall know what is done by those who are without. For if the prophets were able to know things that had not yet happened, by means of that indwelling of God in their minds, limited though it was, shall not the immortal saints know things that have already happened, when God shall be all in all?

Aquinas : "Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude…Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant
thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them."

Jeremy Taylor, 1613, English Bishop of the Church of England
"Husbands shall see their wives, parents shall see their children tormented before
their eyes…the bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell like grapes
in a wine-press, which press on another till they burst."

FYI, "God is love". Laugh out loadLaugh out load

Sadcryface

But we're still trying. Aren't we?

"The ages of muscle and miracle — of fists and faith — are passing away." - Ingersoll

"Faith in God means believing absolutely in something with no proof whatsoever. Faith in humanity means believing absolutely in something with a huge amount of proof to the contrary. We are the true believers." - Joss Whedon (of all people)

I guess my name *is* appropriate, after all Rolleyes

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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25-07-2017, 07:40 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2017 07:43 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
Quote:Yes they did. Absolutely.
Nice try to make it all nice. It says what it says. It's how the ancient mind worked. It's full of hate and vengeance. There's no way to lie about it and make it all nice. The culture was tribal. They HATED their enemies. There were no "individuals", only groups. If they hated the group, that included the babies. All the rest is Presentism.

The passage is not prescriptive.

The writer is lamenting his oppression and torment at the hands of the Babylonians. And those of us who didn't grow up in liberal suburbia, and are acquainted with the attraction of violence when wronged, can see it as relatable.

It would be like a brutalized black slave, taking delight in the idea of his slaveowners house burning down with his family in it. If you were to hurt someone I love, and if I were articulate my desire for revenge, it would be to destroy you entirely, burn everything you've loved. I'd want far more than an eye for an eye. That immediate desire wouldn't be for you to feel an equivalent degree of pain that you've inflicted on me, but to feel it a 100 fold.

But expressing delight in such an immediate image is different that acting on it, or assigning a moral weight to it, or treating it is a command for others to follow.

If I were to experience what it was the writer was expressing, in considering my oppressors, I'll find delight in the idea of bashing their little babies against a rock. If I was a black slave, I'd delight in the idea of killing my slave owner and his family, his children and all.

This might offend some poor liberal sensibilities, but that's beside the point. It speaks to a very human sense of emotion, and expression, one that perhaps you and your dewey band of homies can't relate to, but oh well.

The books of the bible may have been composed by violent men, who had no qualms about killing entire tribes of people when needing to. But this isn't a passage writing of actions they performed. It's a passage highlighting the attractiveness of a violent revenge, against their oppressor. It's not describing a violent event that happened, but a man in his thirst for vengeance fantasized about. This is not a modern take on the passage, it's clearly what the passage is about.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-07-2017, 07:45 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Yes they did. Absolutely.
Nice try to make it all nice. It says what it says. It's how the ancient mind worked. It's full of hate and vengeance. There's no way to lie about it and make it all nice. The culture was tribal. They HATED their enemies. There were no "individuals", only groups. If they hated the group, that included the babies. All the rest is Presentism.

The passage is not prescriptive.

It's the writer is lamenting his oppression and torment at the hands of the Babylonians. And those of us who didn't grow up in liberal suburbia, and are acquainted with the attraction of violence when wronged, can see it as relatable.

It would be like a brutalized black slave, taking delight in the idea of his slaveowners house burning down with his family in it. If you were to hurt someone I love, and if I were articulate my desire for revenge, it would be to destroy you entirely, burn everything you've loved. I'd want far more than an eye for an eye. That immediate desire wouldn't be for you to feel an equivalent degree of pain that you've inflicted on me, but to feel it a 100 fold.

But expressing delight in such an immediate image is different that acting on it, or assigning a moral weight to it, or treating it is a command for others to follow.

If I were to experience what it was the writer was expressing, in considering my oppressors, I'll find delight in the idea of bashing their little babies against a rock. If I was a black slave, I'd delight in the idea of killing my slave owner and his family, his children and all.

This might offend some poor liberal sensibilities, but that's beside the point. It speaks to a very human sense of emotion, and expression, one that perhaps you and your dewey band of homies can't relate to, but oh well.

The books of the bible may have been composed by violent men, who had no qualms about killing entire tribes of people when needing to. But this isn't a passage writing of actions they performed. It's a passage highlighting the attractiveness of a violent revenge, against their oppressor. It's not describing a violent event that happened, but a man in his thirst for vengeance fantasized about. This is not a modern take on the passage, it's clearly what the passage is about.

Aren't you cute. The dude who is almost illiterate learned a new big word.

Nice try there sport. They had no conception of "prescriptive" or whatever bullshit is your new crapola du jour, you use to justify you reinterpretations. It IS YOUR modern take on what you CLAIM the passage is about. They said what they said.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2017, 07:49 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Yes they did. Absolutely.
Nice try to make it all nice. It says what it says. It's how the ancient mind worked. It's full of hate and vengeance. There's no way to lie about it and make it all nice. The culture was tribal. They HATED their enemies. There were no "individuals", only groups. If they hated the group, that included the babies. All the rest is Presentism.

The passage is not prescriptive.

The writer is lamenting his oppression and torment at the hands of the Babylonians. And those of us who didn't grow up in liberal suburbia, and are acquainted with the attraction of violence when wronged, can see it as relatable.

It would be like a brutalized black slave, taking delight in the idea of his slaveowners house burning down with his family in it. If you were to hurt someone I love, and if I were articulate my desire for revenge, it would be to destroy you entirely, burn everything you've loved. I'd want far more than an eye for an eye. That immediate desire wouldn't be for you to feel an equivalent degree of pain that you've inflicted on me, but to feel it a 100 fold.

But expressing delight in such an immediate image is different that acting on it, or assigning a moral weight to it, or treating it is a command for others to follow.

If I were to experience what it was the writer was expressing, in considering my oppressors, I'll find delight in the idea of bashing their little babies against a rock. If I was a black slave, I'd delight in the idea of killing my slave owner and his family, his children and all.

This might offend some poor liberal sensibilities, but that's beside the point. It speaks to a very human sense of emotion, and expression, one that perhaps you and your dewey band of homies can't relate to, but oh well.

The books of the bible may have been composed by violent men, who had no qualms about killing entire tribes of people when needing to. But this isn't a passage writing of actions they performed. It's a passage highlighting the attractiveness of a violent revenge, against their oppressor. It's not describing a violent event that happened, but a man in his thirst for vengeance fantasized about. This is not a modern take on the passage, it's clearly what the passage is about.

"Oh, what a big straw you have!"

"All the better to grasp at." Drinking Beverage

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"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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25-07-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nice try there sport. They had no conception of "prescriptive" or whatever bullshit is your new crapola du jour, you use to justify you reinterpretations. It IS YOUR modern take on what you CLAIM the passage is about. They said what they said.

It doesn't matter what their degree of conception was. The verse doesn't describe something that took place. Nor is it a moral command. It expresses a fantasy. The only thing the writer here can be accused of is finding delight in a violent image of revenge.

Given the chance, would the writer and his community of killed their oppressors, woman, and children, and all? Perhaps, or perhaps not, but the question is outside the context of the passage in question.

This is not a modern reinterpretation. It's merely stating the facts of the passage.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-07-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  . . .And those of us who didn't grow up in liberal suburbia, and are acquainted with the attraction of violence when wronged, can see it as relatable. . . .

If I were to experience what it was the writer was expressing, in considering my oppressors, I'll find delight in the idea of bashing their little babies against a rock. If I was a black slave, I'd delight in the idea of killing my slave owner and his family, his children and all. . . .

This might offend some poor liberal sensibilities, but that's beside the point. It speaks to a very human sense of emotion, and expression, one that perhaps you and your dewey band of homies can't relate to, but oh well. . . .

I agree. Those damn libtards need to quit whining and learn about the real world, and feelings of vengeance. In fact, I've got a quote from one of those stupid liberals right here.

Quote:Matthew 5:38-45 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This hippie SOB needs to get with the program, amirite?

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25-07-2017, 08:05 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-07-2017 07:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nice try there sport. They had no conception of "prescriptive" or whatever bullshit is your new crapola du jour, you use to justify you reinterpretations. It IS YOUR modern take on what you CLAIM the passage is about. They said what they said.

It doesn't matter what their degree of conception was. The verse doesn't describe something that took place. Nor is it a moral command. It expresses a fantasy. The only thing the writer here can be accused of is finding delight in a violent image of revenge.

Given the chance, would the writer and his community of killed their oppressors, woman, and children, and all? Perhaps, or perhaps not, but the question is outside the context of the passage in question.

This is not a modern reinterpretation. It's merely stating the facts of the passage.

It is not a fantasy. It a Biblical text that describes what they wanted to DO, and what they felt was justified. They had no concept of "fantasy". They WOULD have killed everyone, (and it's "would HAVE", not "would of"), Mr. Fake PhD. You have no clue what the passage is, and you have NO education in ancient Near Eastern culture and ancient Hebrew texts. It's YOUR interpretation of a passage. There are no "facts" of a passage, except for Fundamentalists.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 07:58 PM)TSG Wrote:  This hippie SOB needs to get with the program, amirite?

That hippie SOB had no qualms about using violent imagery, in his parables, and stories.

And just because I might want to kill you for hurting someone I love, or even if I were to give in and do it, doesn't mean I think it's right. Perhaps folks like you, like to paint all your desires and actions as good, but I have no illusions about this. I desire good things, and bad things, I do good things and bad things. I give in to whats evil, and sometimes I give in to what's good. Sometimes I act out of love, sometimes out of selfishness, out of hate, or spite. I may delude myself about other things, but I don't delude myself into thinking that everything I do is righteous, or Christ like.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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