Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
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25-07-2017, 09:08 PM
Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 09:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-07-2017 08:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s an idea with no basis in reality, and by definition a fantasy.

It’s a mental image expressing conscious or unconscious wishes, and by definition a fantasy.

Your stupid arguments don’t change that, but that is some impressive mental gymnastics you’re performing.

It's that definition in 2017, and NOT a few thousand years ago. As I said, you are wallowing in Presentism, and have no education AT ALL in ancient literature. But thanks for proving you wasted your money on your fake degree.


Ah yes, I forgot, that today a college degree teaches you that people a few thousand years ago never fantasized.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-07-2017, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2017 05:46 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(25-07-2017 09:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-07-2017 09:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's that definition in 2017, and NOT a few thousand years ago. As I said, you are wallowing in Presentism, and have no education AT ALL in ancient literature. But thanks for proving you wasted your money on your fake degree.


Ah yes, I forgot, that today a college degree teaches you that people a few thousand years ago never fantasized.

Quote:What a terrible argument you have there.

Now all you have to do, is demonstrate that Hebrews wrote down their fantasies in their holy books.
I seem to recall they called them dreams. And when they did, they called them dreams.
And I recall no fantasies that were labeled as such.

Too bad I messed up your new big word.

What are you doing here ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
Trying to stay above the personal feuds here (and I have had a few of those with Tomasia), I have to say that Tomasia's interpretation of the ending of psalm 137 seems pretty reasonable to me. It's a revenge fantasy, much like several of Tarantino's movies. I don't see anything so terrible about that hypothesis.
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26-07-2017, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2017 01:39 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(26-07-2017 08:21 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Trying to stay above the personal feuds here (and I have had a few of those with Tomasia), I have to say that Tomasia's interpretation of the ending of psalm 137 seems pretty reasonable to me. It's a revenge fantasy, much like several of Tarantino's movies. I don't see anything so terrible about that hypothesis.

Yes, it's someone verbalizing their feelings of wanting to take revenge for the destruction of the Temple by murdering Babylonian children.

The point of my starting this thread, however, was to make precisely that point and contrast the motivation of the people who would react that way to the teachings in the NT, eg., love your enemies, etc. What came back on the forum were suggestions that this was not actually what the passage meant, and that it was, on the contrary, a criticism of Bablyonians who had murdered babies. The other view was this was just a fantasy and that this sort of thing never happened, that these people didn't do that sort of thing. That is hard to accept, I think, when you have a culture in which it was acceptable to sacrifice one's first born child, up until Abraham.

What I was trying to illustrate was that this "Judaism" of the Old Testament is not what we now think of as typical of Jewish thinking. The response, that one needs to look at how the Torah interprets this in a benign and completely contradictory way, suggests to me that there have been efforts in Judaic scholarship to temper the violence of the Old Testament by changing the meaning of passages like this so they say almost the exact opposite of their plain meaning.

But, if that is what Judaism is about, then how can they criticize Christianity. It was written by "Jewish" scholars and it attempts to change the morals of these people. It does so by starting afresh with a different conception of God who is not a big vengeful male character, but is one and the same as a "concept", ie., the "logos".

One can say that the NT is full of fairy tales and false history. That would be a valid point, but it's hard to sling mud if your own book is just as implausible and you have to jump through hoops to make it look anywhere close to being wholesome.

The Christian response, if one adopts the attitude suggested in Matthew, would be to forgive the Babylonians, turn the other cheek and, in fact, go round their house, knock on their door, and say, "Can I speak to you for a moment about Jesus?" and hopefully be invited in for a cup of tea.
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26-07-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
And the other thing...

It wasn't until I a few months ago that I re-read, or more accurately, read for the first time parts of the NT in a more careful way.

There's a lot of ridicule of Christianity here based on perceptions of "literalist" fundamentalist Christians who talk about the virgin birth and the resurrection. I thumbed through the NT and looked up the passages about the virgin birth and the crucifixion and nowhere in the NT does it actually say that "God" made Mary pregnant. Matthew says that Mary was "found to be of child of the Holy Spirit". Mark says that an angel comes to Mary and says that she is favoured of God and will conceive a child which will be "called" the son of God.

Then the NT goes on to say that Jesus is the son of Joseph and it traces his ancestry back to the royal line of David, which would be impossible if Joseph wasn't actually the father. If God had impregnated Mary, his family tree would read "God begat Jesus". Much shorter.

Then if you look at the description of Jesus' death on the cross, all the gospels say he "gave up the ghost". What does that mean? Who pronounced his death? Was there an autopsy? There is a plausible deniability of many of the fantastic aspects of Christianity which would be my first response to fundamentalist literalists.
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26-07-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(26-07-2017 02:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  And the other thing...

It wasn't until I a few months ago that I re-read, or more accurately, read for the first time parts of the NT in a more careful way.

There's a lot of ridicule of Christianity here based on perceptions of "literalist" fundamentalist Christians who talk about the virgin birth and the resurrection. I thumbed through the NT and looked up the passages about the virgin birth and the crucifixion and nowhere in the NT does it actually say that "God" made Mary pregnant. Matthew says that Mary was "found to be of child of the Holy Spirit". Mark says that an angel comes to Mary and says that she is favoured of God and will conceive a child which will be "called" the son of God.

Then the NT goes on to say that Jesus is the son of Joseph and it traces his ancestry back to the royal line of David, which would be impossible if Joseph wasn't actually the father. If God had impregnated Mary, his family tree would read "God begat Jesus". Much shorter.

Then if you look at the description of Jesus' death on the cross, all the gospels say he "gave up the ghost". What does that mean? Who pronounced his death? Was there an autopsy? There is a plausible deniability of many of the fantastic aspects of Christianity which would be my first response to fundamentalist literalists.

.... Or you could just ask Christians what their book means. I've never met a Christian who arrives at the conclusions you arrived at. Maybe you're missing some important context?
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26-07-2017, 02:21 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(26-07-2017 02:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  And the other thing...

It wasn't until I a few months ago that I re-read, or more accurately, read for the first time parts of the NT in a more careful way.

There's a lot of ridicule of Christianity here based on perceptions of "literalist" fundamentalist Christians who talk about the virgin birth and the resurrection. I thumbed through the NT and looked up the passages about the virgin birth and the crucifixion and nowhere in the NT does it actually say that "God" made Mary pregnant. Matthew says that Mary was "found to be of child of the Holy Spirit". Mark says that an angel comes to Mary and says that she is favoured of God and will conceive a child which will be "called" the son of God.

Then the NT goes on to say that Jesus is the son of Joseph and it traces his ancestry back to the royal line of David, which would be impossible if Joseph wasn't actually the father. If God had impregnated Mary, his family tree would read "God begat Jesus". Much shorter.

Then if you look at the description of Jesus' death on the cross, all the gospels say he "gave up the ghost". What does that mean? Who pronounced his death? Was there an autopsy? There is a plausible deniability of many of the fantastic aspects of Christianity which would be my first response to fundamentalist literalists.
Part of the confusion behind the virgin birth is a translation error from the original Greek. Apparently the original word meant "young woman" but it was translated as "virgin," so people got confused. Aside from that though, I don't think "God begat Jesus" would work because of typical theological nonsense (like the trinity) which explains in ridiculous and incomprehensible ways how God works. He didn't have intercourse with her, he just used the Holy Spirit on her. Although I guess maybe God used the Holy Spirit on Joseph's.... seed. Shocking

As for "gave up the ghost," that's not the only place where that saying shows up. In the OT they use the same saying for Abraham (Genesis 25:8), Ishmael (25:17), and Isaac (35:29), among others. In all of these cases it clearly refers to death.

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26-07-2017, 02:31 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(26-07-2017 02:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Then the NT goes on to say that Jesus is the son of Joseph ...

Well, not exactly. There are two Gospels (Matthew and Luke) that give genealogies of Jesus.

Matthew only goes as far as Joseph, and then says that he was the husband of Mary, who was the mother of Jesus. It seems to me that he takes pains not to say that Joseph is the father of Jesus.

Luke says that Jesus was the son (as was supposed) of Joseph. So he also implies that Joseph was not the real father.

I'm pretty sure that Christian theology (no matter the denomination) universally professes the virgin birth, and Joseph as stepfather only. I have never heard any Christian interpret it as you do.
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26-07-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(26-07-2017 01:26 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  That is hard to accept, I think, when you have a culture in which it was acceptable to sacrifice one's first born child, up until Abraham.

That would be strange for a culture in which as the story goes God himself told “him to not lay a hand on the boy, don’t do anything to him.”

It was culture which valued obedience to God above all else. If God truly did want you to sacrifice your children to him, then you should. But it wasn’t a culture that imagined that God truly wanted them to perform human sacrifices. There’s no real historical evidence, that the early Hebrews like many of the surrounding religious counterpart engaged in ritual human sacrifices. They preferred lambs and sheep instead.

In fact from the opening book, from Cain and Abel, to Jonah, and throughout condemns taking innocent human life.

You could accuse the early Hebrews of all sorts of things, of killing entire tribes, woman and children, for taking girls as the spoils of war, etc.. but you can’t accuse them of practicing ritual human sacrifices.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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26-07-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(26-07-2017 02:31 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(26-07-2017 02:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Then the NT goes on to say that Jesus is the son of Joseph ...

Well, not exactly. There are two Gospels (Matthew and Luke) that give genealogies of Jesus.

Matthew only goes as far as Joseph, and then says that he was the husband of Mary, who was the mother of Jesus. It seems to me that he takes pains not to say that Joseph is the father of Jesus.

Luke says that Jesus was the son (as was supposed) of Joseph. So he also implies that Joseph was not the real father.

I'm pretty sure that Christian theology (no matter the denomination) universally professes the virgin birth, and Joseph as stepfather only. I have never heard any Christian interpret it as you do.

Only Matthew and Luke could be said to claim Jesus was born of a virgin. The writers of Mark and John didn't hold such a belief, and didn't see it as something of importance to assign to Christ.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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