Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
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27-07-2017, 08:29 AM
Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 08:12 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  How could you possibly know what beliefs Mark or John held regarding the virgin birth? They say nothing about it one way or the other.

Because that silence means something. It’s a pretty a significant attribute to attach to your messiah, to fail to mention in your accounts of his life and ministry. John goes out of his way to establish Jesus as divine, as God incarnate, yet doesn’t mention the virgin birth.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2017, 09:05 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 08:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 08:12 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  How could you possibly know what beliefs Mark or John held regarding the virgin birth? They say nothing about it one way or the other.

Because that silence means something. It’s a pretty a significant attribute to attach to your messiah, to fail to mention in your accounts of his life and ministry. John goes out of his way to establish Jesus as divine, as God incarnate, yet doesn’t mention the virgin birth.

I think it likely that the virgin birth was a later addition to the legend (later than Mark's Gospel), and that's why Mark doesn't mention it.

My hypothesis is that none of the Gospel writers knew anything about Jesus's birth or childhood, and that two of them (Mark and John) decided to start with the part that was known (his adult ministry). The other two (Matthew and Luke) were heavily invested in Jesus as fulfilling various prophecies, so they made up a virgin birth, and a nativity story (I think it's telling that the two nativity stories are completely different) placing his birth in Bethlehem.

John is a special case. His Gospel is quite different from the other three, was probably written significantly later, and has so much mystical mumbo-jumbo at the beginning that you wouldn't guess that Jesus had human origins at all. The idea of "The Word becoming flesh" is even more "out there" than a virgin birth. I can imagine John thinking "I don't need no steenking virgin birth -- I've got something even wackier!"
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27-07-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 09:05 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 08:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Because that silence means something. It’s a pretty a significant attribute to attach to your messiah, to fail to mention in your accounts of his life and ministry. John goes out of his way to establish Jesus as divine, as God incarnate, yet doesn’t mention the virgin birth.

I think it likely that the virgin birth was a later addition to the legend (later than Mark's Gospel), and that's why Mark doesn't mention it.

My hypothesis is that none of the Gospel writers knew anything about Jesus's birth or childhood, and that two of them (Mark and John) decided to start with the part that was known (his adult ministry). The other two (Matthew and Luke) were heavily invested in Jesus as fulfilling various prophecies, so they made up a virgin birth, and a nativity story (I think it's telling that the two nativity stories are completely different) placing his birth in Bethlehem.

John is a special case. His Gospel is quite different from the other three, was probably written significantly later, and has so much mystical mumbo-jumbo at the beginning that you wouldn't guess that Jesus had human origins at all. The idea of "The Word becoming flesh" is even more "out there" than a virgin birth. I can imagine John thinking "I don't need no steenking virgin birth -- I've got something even wackier!"

The vrigin birth was most likely a mistranslation in the Septuagint which was full of errors. The gospel writers had the distinct advantage of looking backwards through the Old Testament to shoehorn Jesus into the messiah.

I'm always amazed that Christians never think about this when they carry on about Jesus being prophetic from the old testament. It's a writing technique, NOT prophecy. You cannot have prophecy being fulfilled within the text of a book written over hundreds of years by different authors. That's kind of a different subject, but still.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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27-07-2017, 09:19 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 09:15 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 09:05 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I think it likely that the virgin birth was a later addition to the legend (later than Mark's Gospel), and that's why Mark doesn't mention it.

My hypothesis is that none of the Gospel writers knew anything about Jesus's birth or childhood, and that two of them (Mark and John) decided to start with the part that was known (his adult ministry). The other two (Matthew and Luke) were heavily invested in Jesus as fulfilling various prophecies, so they made up a virgin birth, and a nativity story (I think it's telling that the two nativity stories are completely different) placing his birth in Bethlehem.

John is a special case. His Gospel is quite different from the other three, was probably written significantly later, and has so much mystical mumbo-jumbo at the beginning that you wouldn't guess that Jesus had human origins at all. The idea of "The Word becoming flesh" is even more "out there" than a virgin birth. I can imagine John thinking "I don't need no steenking virgin birth -- I've got something even wackier!"

The vrigin birth was most likely a mistranslation in the Septuagint which was full of errors. The gospel writers had the distinct advantage of looking backwards through the Old Testament to shoehorn Jesus into the messiah.

I'm always amazed that Christians never think about this when they carry on about Jesus being prophetic from the old testament. It's a writing technique, NOT prophecy. You cannot have prophecy being fulfilled within the text of a book written over hundreds of years by different authors. That's kind of a different subject, but still.

Exactly. More than once Matthew has Jesus doing something "in order that the prophecy might be fulfilled". That's cheating. If you deliberately do something (or claim that someone else did so) in order to fulfill a prophecy, that makes a mockery of the whole concept of prophecy.
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27-07-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
As we all know, "Virgin Births" don't occur. It's physically impossible. So it's more likely Mary had done the dirty behind Josephs back, and just said "yep....it's god alright" and the whole thing spiraled out of control.

Is there any "story" or Tale of what happened to Jesus post birth up until he was a grown man? I've heard stories of him travelling to the East/India etc, but not found any actual evidence for that. I mean the bible evidence, not the real evidence...because there is no real evidence, as it's all bullshit.

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27-07-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 09:19 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 09:15 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The vrigin birth was most likely a mistranslation in the Septuagint which was full of errors. The gospel writers had the distinct advantage of looking backwards through the Old Testament to shoehorn Jesus into the messiah.

I'm always amazed that Christians never think about this when they carry on about Jesus being prophetic from the old testament. It's a writing technique, NOT prophecy. You cannot have prophecy being fulfilled within the text of a book written over hundreds of years by different authors. That's kind of a different subject, but still.

Exactly. More than once Matthew has Jesus doing something "in order that the prophecy might be fulfilled". That's cheating. If you deliberately do something (or claim that someone else did so) in order to fulfill a prophecy, that makes a mockery of the whole concept of prophecy.

The only way the Jesus prophecy would have been true is if Jesus had popped up in... I donno, India or Chinese literature or someplace completely seperated from the Hebrew Bible. (It would be almost like a double blinded science abstract.) Then we'd know for sure that is wasn't the gospel writers quote mining the Old Testament.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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27-07-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 09:28 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Is there any "story" or Tale of what happened to Jesus post birth up until he was a grown man? I've heard stories of him travelling to the East/India etc, but not found any actual evidence for that. I mean the bible evidence, not the real evidence...because there is no real evidence, as it's all bullshit.

I think this is the only one from the NT:

Quote: Luke 2:41-52New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
The Boy Jesus in the Temple

41 Now every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival. 43 When the festival was ended and they started to return, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but his parents did not know it. 44 Assuming that he was in the group of travelers, they went a day’s journey. Then they started to look for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem to search for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents[a] saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Child, why have you treated us like this? Look, your father and I have been searching for you in great anxiety.” 49 He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”[b] 50 But they did not understand what he said to them. 51 Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

Now the important thing here is that this is from Luke so you can trust it, he's the one that's the "historian." Yes
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27-07-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
There is a figure by the name of Izates Manu Monobaz who was the son of Queen Helena. He resembles Jesus but is of a later date but still before the first report of Mathew being written. He was sent to study in a place called Charax Spasinu. While there he converted to a new form of Judaism. He later became a Rabbi in Jerusalem. His mother organized a famine relief in Judea and he was the leader of a revolt against Roman rule. It is the closest story I have found to explain Jesus disappearing for many years. But don't mention this to anyone. Lol
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27-07-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 03:26 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  There is a figure by the name of Izates Manu Monobaz who was the son of Queen Helena. He resembles Jesus but is of a later date but still before the first report of Mathew being written. He was sent to study in a place called Charax Spasinu. While there he converted to a new form of Judaism. He later became a Rabbi in Jerusalem. His mother organized a famine relief in Judea and he was the leader of a revolt against Roman rule. It is the closest story I have found to explain Jesus disappearing for many years. But don't mention this to anyone. Lol
How can anyone be said to "resemble Jesus"? We have no idea what he looked like.
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27-07-2017, 06:57 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(27-07-2017 03:26 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  There is a figure by the name of Izates Manu Monobaz who was the son of Queen Helena. He resembles Jesus but is of a later date but still before the first report of Mathew being written. He was sent to study in a place called Charax Spasinu. While there he converted to a new form of Judaism. He later became a Rabbi in Jerusalem. His mother organized a famine relief in Judea and he was the leader of a revolt against Roman rule. It is the closest story I have found to explain Jesus disappearing for many years. But don't mention this to anyone. Lol

Not this shit again.
I heard Jesus went to live with the Seven Dwarfs. That's where he spent his childhood.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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