Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
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23-07-2017, 04:58 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 04:24 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 03:54 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Interpretations depend on the individual or family or sect, IN BOTH Christianity and Jewish religions. in all religions for that matter. But where do you get the idea that the two religions are not connected? Jewish, Christianity and Islam all have the same God of Abraham.
Not to mention the fact that Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jews and the only reason Christianity spread to Gentiles was because of people like Paul and Peter (also Jews).

Not really. Peter was a Galilean fisherman .. the rest was invented later. No Galilean fisherman EVER went travelling the Near East preaching anything. It never happened. It was made up. There IS NO WAY he ever was the first bishop of Rome.
Paul was an apocalyptic Jew, (who may or may not have written what he is purported to have written), and in that sense, preached apocalyptic JUDAISM, which was later reinterpreted.

That said, "orthodox" Christianity was invented as a politically unifying tool, which no one would know about, were it not for Constantine deciding to use it to unify his empire. There is virtually nothing recognizable between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus (if he existed) got NONE of the jobs done the Jews who were expecting a messiah to get done, accomplished. The links between Judaism and Christianity do not hold up to any sort of scrutiny, (as Aliza has well described). They (the "commonalities") were INVENTED much later, to create the link, when they invented Christianity, in the councils.

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23-07-2017, 05:10 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 04:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 04:24 PM)TSG Wrote:  Not to mention the fact that Jesus was a Jew preaching to Jews and the only reason Christianity spread to Gentiles was because of people like Paul and Peter (also Jews).

Not really. Peter was a Galilean fisherman .. the rest was invented later. No Galilean fisherman EVER went travelling the Near East preaching anything. It never happened. It was made up. There IS NO WAY he ever was the first bishop of Rome.
Paul was an apocalyptic Jew, (who may or may not have written what he is purported to have written), and in that sense, preached apocalyptic JUDAISM, which was later reinterpreted.

That said, "orthodox" Christianity was invented as a politically unifying tool, which no one would know about, were it not for Constantine deciding to use it to unify his empire. There is virtually nothing recognizable between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus (if he existed) got NONE of the jobs done the Jews who were expecting a messiah to get done, accomplished. The links between Judaism and Christianity do not hold up to any sort of scrutiny, (as Aliza has well described). They (the "commonalities") were INVENTED much later, to create the link, when they invented Christianity, in the councils.

I see what you are doing here but I wouldn't put it this way.

First off even the Jewish religion is really a plagiarism of polytheism, and yes of course Christianity was a splinter sect of Jews, that is how every new religion gets started. It attaches and or incorporates characters and motifs of prior and surrounding religions, exalts the ideas it likes and vilifies the characters and ideas it doesn't like. Yes Christianity was manufactured, but it is still based on the Jewish religion. Written to retrofit to draw people away from the old religion sure, but we would not be talking OT vs NT if the splinter Christians were not trying to compete with the older religion they splintered from. Just like the early Hebrews elevated Yahweh from a lesser deity of the Canaanites to being the only and top God of the later successful Jewish religion.

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23-07-2017, 05:16 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 05:10 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 04:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not really. Peter was a Galilean fisherman .. the rest was invented later. No Galilean fisherman EVER went travelling the Near East preaching anything. It never happened. It was made up. There IS NO WAY he ever was the first bishop of Rome.
Paul was an apocalyptic Jew, (who may or may not have written what he is purported to have written), and in that sense, preached apocalyptic JUDAISM, which was later reinterpreted.

That said, "orthodox" Christianity was invented as a politically unifying tool, which no one would know about, were it not for Constantine deciding to use it to unify his empire. There is virtually nothing recognizable between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus (if he existed) got NONE of the jobs done the Jews who were expecting a messiah to get done, accomplished. The links between Judaism and Christianity do not hold up to any sort of scrutiny, (as Aliza has well described). They (the "commonalities") were INVENTED much later, to create the link, when they invented Christianity, in the councils.

I see what you are doing here but I wouldn't put it this way.

First off even the Jewish religion is really a plagiarism of polytheism, and yes of course Christianity was a splinter sect of Jews, that is how every new religion gets started. It attaches and or incorporates characters and motifs of prior and surrounding religions, exalts the ideas it likes and vilifies the characters and ideas it doesn't like. Yes Christianity was manufactured, but it is still based on the Jewish religion. Written to retrofit to draw people away from the old religion sure, but we would not be talking OT vs NT if the splinter Christians were not trying to compete with the older religion they splintered from. Just like the early Hebrews elevated Yahweh from a lesser deity of the Canaanites to being the only and top God of the later successful Jewish religion.

No.

There was no concept of "plagiarism" then. "Syncretism" was the name of the game in the ancient world. That's simply "presentism".

Christianity is not in any way "based" on Judaism. The orthodoxy that was developed LATER, was not what the members of the Jewish sub-sect (the "Way") believed, in the First Century. There is no way a "trinity" is "based on " Yahweh", and the entire business of 'salvation" is NOT Jewish, IN ANY WAY.
It's not "based" on Judaism. Christianity was invented later with some common names, but no common philosophies.

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23-07-2017, 05:34 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 04:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Suppose someone you don't know steals something from you and you report the object to the authorities has having been stolen. Then the criminal uses the object to commit a crime well after you filed your report. Are you responsible for the crime? (Don't pick it apart, I'm just trying to illustrate a point.)

B-but I like picking things apart. Weeping I wouldn't blame the original owner of the object, but the crime would not have been committed unless that original owner had owned it, after all.

That analogy matches rather well with (at least my perception of) Judaism and Christianity, and by extension Mormonism and Islam. The Book of Mormon simply would not exist without the Tanakh, but I would hardly call

an extension of Judaism.

Quote:The Christians took our religion, gutted it out and rebuilt it from the ground up. Jews bailed on it very early on before it ever was "Christianity" and Paul, being an uneducated cunt himself, really just superimposed what he sort of understood about Judaism onto the roman pagan religion of the region and marketed it to gentiles.


Yeah, in my opinion it was Paul who actually founded Christianity as something other than a tiny, minor branching of Jews based on his own philosophical and theological views. I agree with his completely altering Jewish teaching for the sake of preaching to the Gentiles, but I'm not sure about his being "an uneducated cunt," as you so elegantly put it. I mean, he wasn't just some random nobody who didn't understand Judaism: he said he was a Pharisee originally. Admittedly, that may be false, since the only source we have for that is the NT.

Quote:The proto-Christianity that Jews were a part of simply believed that Jesus was a good teacher and might have been the messiah. -The messiah isn't G-d. The messiah is a flesh and bone, normal guy with a specific pedigree. Christians changed the very definition of the messiah! They changed everything.
Honestly we should call it Paulianity: we don't know a damn thing about the historical Jesus, only the 'Christ' his apostles created.

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23-07-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 05:34 PM)TSG Wrote:  Yeah, in my opinion it was Paul who actually founded Christianity as something other than a tiny, minor branching of Jews based on his own philosophical and theological views. I agree with his completely altering Jewish teaching for the sake of preaching to the Gentiles, but I'm not sure about his being "an uneducated cunt," as you so elegantly put it. I mean, he wasn't just some random nobody who didn't understand Judaism: he said he was a Pharisee originally. Admittedly, that may be false, since the only source we have for that is the NT.

Actually Paul (or whoever wrote that material) thought (as Jesus did) the end was immanent.
He never intended to found anything, and when the Pauline writings are translated in context, they are totally in sync with apocalyptic Judaism.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

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23-07-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 05:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 05:34 PM)TSG Wrote:  Yeah, in my opinion it was Paul who actually founded Christianity as something other than a tiny, minor branching of Jews based on his own philosophical and theological views. I agree with his completely altering Jewish teaching for the sake of preaching to the Gentiles, but I'm not sure about his being "an uneducated cunt," as you so elegantly put it. I mean, he wasn't just some random nobody who didn't understand Judaism: he said he was a Pharisee originally. Admittedly, that may be false, since the only source we have for that is the NT.

Actually Paul (or whoever wrote that material) thought (as Jesus did) the end was immanent.
He never intended to found anything, and when the Pauline writings are translated in context, they are totally in sync with apocalyptic Judaism.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

Wow. You really are an insufferable know-it-all.

...

Teach me your ways, o badass Messiah. Bowing

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23-07-2017, 05:57 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 04:38 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I just think that you could have posed some questions to Aliza since she is our resident practicing Jew instead of dismissing what she said.

'Practicing' was poor word choice...chalk it up to years as a Catholic...my apologies to Aliza. I feel that the word 'observant' would have been better.

My bad...the beatings may begin at sundown.

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23-07-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 05:34 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 04:55 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Suppose someone you don't know steals something from you and you report the object to the authorities has having been stolen. Then the criminal uses the object to commit a crime well after you filed your report. Are you responsible for the crime? (Don't pick it apart, I'm just trying to illustrate a point.)

B-but I like picking things apart. Weeping I wouldn't blame the original owner of the object, but the crime would not have been committed unless that original owner had owned it, after all.

I'm allowed to own a baseball bat. If I own a baseball bat because that's my sport of choice, I've committed no crime and I have only purchased and used the item as it was intended. If someone comes and steals it and then bludgeons someone to death, I'm not responsible. I can't stop living my life because other people might misuse my belongings.

(23-07-2017 05:34 PM)TSG Wrote:  I'm not sure about [Paul] being "an uneducated cunt," as you so elegantly put it. I mean, he wasn't just some random nobody who didn't understand Judaism: he said he was a Pharisee originally. Admittedly, that may be false, since the only source we have for that is the NT.

Paul wasn't a Pharisee. It was claimed that he studied under Gamaliel, who was arguably like the Stephen Hawking of Judaism of his time. If I claimed to be a student of Stephen Hawking's, you'd probably expect that that Stephen Hawking would know who I am, or that at the very least, there'd be some enrollment record to prove that I did indeed study under him. You would also expect me to be very good in math and physics, but if I couldn't multiply or divide, or if I couldn't do even basic calculus, you'd know right away that I'm full of shit.

Paul couldn't read Hebrew and he misunderstands Jewish law. We know this because he quotes from a Greek translation of the Torah, not a Hebrew one. No serious student of Judaic studies of any generation reads from a translation. How can you be a Pharisee, and a student of Gamaliel if you can't speak the language and your functional understanding of the subject is like that of a 10-year old, totally disconnected from Jewish life?
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23-07-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 05:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 04:38 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I just think that you could have posed some questions to Aliza since she is our resident practicing Jew instead of dismissing what she said.

'Practicing' was poor word choice...chalk it up to years as a Catholic...my apologies to Aliza. I feel that the word 'observant' would have been better.

My bad...the beatings may begin at sundown.

Observant is more precise, but I didn't even notice it.

But since you pointed it out, I'm obliged to take action. Sundown is now, so get ready. Evil_monster
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23-07-2017, 06:08 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:06 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 05:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  'Practicing' was poor word choice...chalk it up to years as a Catholic...my apologies to Aliza. I feel that the word 'observant' would have been better.

My bad...the beatings may begin at sundown.

Observant is more precise, but I didn't even notice it.

But since you pointed it out, I'm obliged to take action. Sundown is now, so get ready. Evil_monster

Full sun here...can you let me live till after Game of Thrones?

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