Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
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23-07-2017, 06:13 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017 06:19 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 03:11 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Properly translated and taken in context to the historical events going on at the time (as recorded in Jewish texts), this verse says, "Hey Babylonains, if you want to sacrifice human babies to your deity, why don't you sacrifice your own babies instead of kidnapping and sacrificing ours?" It's not encouraging the Babylonians to commit infanticide, it's challenging them to view human sacrifice from a different perspective.

The verse doesn't say that at all. It doesn't say anything about how the Babylonians treat their own people or children, but what the babylonians have done to their Jewish captors. As the previous verse says "blessed the one who pays you back
what you have done us!"

Then the verse in question:

"Blessed the one who seizes your children
and smashes them against the rock."

You could add (for what you have done to us).

The verse here is one of violent revenge, and not about how the babylonians treat their own children. Your interpretation reeks of a very bad apologetic, and entirely unfaithful to the verse and chapter in question.


Quote:They keep imposing their deity on us and tell us what we believe.

I don't think you represent the beliefs of Jews thousands of years removed from yourself, you just represent the beliefs of your modern day community. A product of your own unique cultural, and political landscape.

It's not even clear what it is you belief. You for the most part summarize your religious position, as one in which all that matters is doing good, and that one's beliefs don't matter, while at the same time criticizing christians for what they believe, accusing them of blasphemy, a transgression in your own religious outlook doesn't matter, as long as one is behaving well.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-07-2017, 06:17 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:04 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Paul couldn't read Hebrew and he misunderstands Jewish law. We know this because he quotes from a Greek translation of the Torah, not a Hebrew one. No serious student of Judaic studies of any generation reads from a translation. How can you be a Pharisee, and a student of Gamaliel if you can't speak the language and your functional understanding of the subject is like that of a 10-year old, totally disconnected from Jewish life?

I think you're doing what you accuse christians of doing, by misstating their text. Why don't you tell me more about what Paul's take on the Jewish law is? What misunderstanding did he push?

Out of curiosity have you actually read the entire NT, and Paul's writings? Or are you basing your views on what others have told you about his writings?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-07-2017, 06:21 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:04 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm allowed to own a baseball bat. If I own a baseball bat because that's my sport of choice, I've committed no crime and I have only purchased and used the item as it was intended. If someone comes and steals it and then bludgeons someone to death, I'm not responsible. I can't stop living my life because other people might misuse my belongings.

At the end of the day, call me a pedant, but a baseball bat is simply not equivalent to a religion in an analogy. Not only does the comparison have an inherently negative connotation (believing something different = bludgeoning to death?), but it assumes a 'proper' way of doing things: swinging the bat at a ball.

Judaism, like any religion, has sects with different interpretations and values from one another, so comparing another emerging belief to an improperly used bat implies that there is an actually proper way to use it. Which way would that be? Orthodox? Reform? Pharisee? Sadducee? Essene? Original, literalist, stone-people-who-work-on-the-Sabbath-ism?

I think of it as more of a bag of seeds: different religions grew into trees from different seeds, and some died out, but some, like Judaism, bore fruit, and the seeds from that fruit sprouted entirely different trees and so on.

Quote:Paul wasn't a Pharisee. It was claimed that he studied under Gamaliel, who was arguably like the Stephen Hawking of Judaism of his time. If I claimed to be a student of Stephen Hawking's, you'd probably expect that that Stephen Hawking would know who I am, or that at the very least, there'd be some enrollment record to prove that I did indeed study under him. You would also expect me to be very good in math and physics, but if I couldn't multiply or divide, or if I couldn't do even basic calculus, you'd know right away that I'm full of shit.

Paul couldn't read Hebrew and he misunderstands Jewish law. We know this because he quotes from a Greek translation of the Torah, not a Hebrew one. No serious student of Judaic studies of any generation reads from a translation. How can you be a Pharisee, and a student of Gamaliel if you can't speak the language and your functional understanding of the subject is like that of a 10-year old, totally disconnected from Jewish life?

And here I cannot respond adequately, as my lack of knowledge of the period restricts me from doing so. I don't find it at all implausible that something in the Bible was wrong, however. Tongue

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23-07-2017, 06:23 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not even clear what it is you belief.

Here, have a mirror. Drinking Beverage

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23-07-2017, 06:28 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 03:11 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Properly translated and taken in context to the historical events going on at the time (as recorded in Jewish texts), this verse says, "Hey Babylonains, if you want to sacrifice human babies to your deity, why don't you sacrifice your own babies instead of kidnapping and sacrificing ours?" It's not encouraging the Babylonians to commit infanticide, it's challenging them to view human sacrifice from a different perspective.

The verse doesn't say that at all. It doesn't say anything about how the Babylonians treat their own people or children, but what the babylonians have done to their Jewish captors. As the previous verse says "blessed the one who pays you back
what you have done us!"

Then the verse in question:

"Blessed the one who seizes your children
and smashes them against the rock."

You could add (for what you have done to us).

The verse here is one of violent revenge, and not about how the babylonians treat their own children. Your interpretation reeks of a very bad apologetic, and entirely unfaithful to the verse and chapter in question.

Bingo! It's not your book. It's our book, and it was written to a Jewish audience. If authors had realized that gentiles would be misappropriating it, maybe they'd have been more generic in their word choice, but as it stands, it's a Jewish book written by Jews, addressed to Jews and assumes a basic understanding of Jewish culture and history. As with any piece of writing or work of art, the best way to understand it is to first understand the target audience
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23-07-2017, 06:37 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
This is probably the most idiotic thread idea I've ever come across.
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23-07-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
The early Christian leaders borrowed from Judaism just like they borrowed from Paganism and other myths and beliefs around the world. They picked and choose what would help make this 'new' religion more palatable in order to bring more people into the fold. For 'credibility' they claimed to be based on the sequel to the OT.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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23-07-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:37 PM)ImFred Wrote:  This is probably the most idiotic thread idea I've ever come across.

Be honest, everyone -- am I coming across as a jerk? That wasn't and isn't my intention and I can stop.

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23-07-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:28 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Bingo! It's not your book. It's our book, and it was written to a Jewish audience. If authors had realized that gentiles would be misappropriating it, maybe they'd have been more generic in their word choice, but as it stands, it's a Jewish book written by Jews, addressed to Jews and assumes a basic understanding of Jewish culture and history. As with any piece of writing or work of art, the best way to understand it is to first understand the target audience

It's not your book. It's my book too.

Just like the Quran, doesn't belong exclusively to Arabs, or the writing of Dostoevsky doesn't belong to exclusively to Russians.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-07-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 06:37 PM)ImFred Wrote:  This is probably the most idiotic thread idea I've ever come across.

Oh, you haven't looked closely enough. Drinking Beverage

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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