Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
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23-07-2017, 07:08 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
Do blondes watch The Game of Thrones? Let's do an anecdotal study!
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23-07-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:07 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 07:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You're even more cranky than usual today. Did we forget our crabby pills ?
We'll be sure and pass all the tread ideas for your approval before we post them.
Facepalm

We? Only one person started this thread.

Hey! Do Texans read Freud?

Only one person is bitching about being FORCED to read it.
Who's Freud ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-07-2017, 07:13 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 07:07 PM)ImFred Wrote:  We? Only one person started this thread.

Hey! Do Texans read Freud?

Only one person is bitching about being FORCED to read it.
Who's Freud ?

Daaaaaaawwwww... He gave it one star! I just had to rate it higher: that star just looked so lonely over there.

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23-07-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:06 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 06:51 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Speaking strictly from a Jewish perspective, the way you use the Torah (ie: baseball bat) properly is by not murdering people for thinking differently than you do. We can have a whole conversation about the wars that were depicted in early Jewish biblical stories, but bear in mind that we wrote the book, and we teach it according to what the Talmud says. We teach that those wars were not ideological but because of horrible behavior like wanton disregard of human life and human dignity. ALL civilizations at the time were fighting each other. Jews fought wars because we thought people were acting like barbarians. Christians fought wars because they didn't like the deity that other people believed in. To a Jewish audience, these are totally different.

This is a really big conversation, and an argument could also be made that the Jewish wars that were written about were just the Jews blowing smoke up everyone's asses to scare them into believing that they were more powerful than they actually were. We do tend to be more clever than physically strong. Tongue

I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree about the wars and crimes in the Tanakh, as I'm sure you've heard all the arguments before. But again I think your terms are rather broad: "From a Jewish perspective"? Which sect is that? I'll just clarify that from my observations of the Old Testament, countless killings were indeed carried out against people for "thinking differently from you [not you specifically of course]". You may argue that my interpretation is lesser since I'm not Jewish, but by that same logic I could probably say that your interpretation is lesser since you're not an ancient Israelite.

My only argument with people is that it's our culture, it's our heritage, and outsiders who have spent exactly 0 days studying Judaism like to tell us how we should read our own books, based on what they see in like 1/100 of our holy texts and commentary.

I don't think I understand the question about which Jewish sect I'm referring to. The vast majority of Jews today are from the Pharisee Jews. I don't know of any Sadducee descendants that exist today, identifying as Sadducee Jews. I'm not sure about the lineage of Beta Israel, and whether they broke off before or after the expulsion from Israel. The Karaites survived, but they're more of a reboot these days. There are about 50K Karaites world wide. The Samaritans aren't really Jews, but they're still around. I think their world-wide population is about 2K. As far as I know, every other Jew can trace their heritage back to the Pharisees.

When I say Jews in general, I mean all Jews who can trace their lineage back to Rabbinic Judaism, as that is the only movement that has consistently survived through all the years.
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23-07-2017, 07:59 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:08 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Do blondes watch The Game of Thrones? Let's do an anecdotal study!

I don't see why you think it's such a stupid question. Christians are told that Jews are really dumb and that we "missed the boat" on our own Messiah. It would make sense that they might think we're sitting around justifying our position and repeating it to ourselves so we're all on the same page or something. Also, Christians spend a lot of time thinking about Judaism, so they may assume that we do the same for them.
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23-07-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:36 PM)Aliza Wrote:  My only argument with people is that it's our culture, it's our heritage, and outsiders who have spent exactly 0 days studying Judaism like to tell us how we should read our own books, based on what they see in like 1/100 of our holy texts and commentary.
I don't think I understand the question about which Jewish sect I'm referring to. The vast majority of Jews today are from the Pharisee Jews. I don't know of any Sadducee descendants that exist today, identifying as Sadducee Jews. I'm not sure about the lineage of Beta Israel, and whether they broke off before or after the expulsion from Israel. The Karaites survived, but they're more of a reboot these days. There are about 50K Karaites world wide. The Samaritans aren't really Jews, but they're still around. I think their world-wide population is about 2K. As far as I know, every other Jew can trace their heritage back to the Pharisees.

When I say Jews in general, I mean all Jews who can trace their lineage back to Rabbinic Judaism, as that is the only movement that has consistently survived through all the years.
There are modern Jews who interpret scripture differently: Orthodox, Reform, Hassidic, heck, I bet you'll get a kick out of these guys. My point was that you said that a "Jewish interpretation" of scripture called for so-and-so, when the religion, like all others, is not a monolith of like-minded people, regardless of where they can trace their ancestry back to.

As for interpreting your holy book, we have no choice but to do so as outsiders, as with every other religion. And, as outsiders, we have no emotional attachment to the faith which, if you'll pardon my bluntness, prevents us from examining it objectively. As an outsider I can state that most Christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus (give to the poor, turn the other cheek) and that Moderate Muslims do not have any inclination to behead infidels. I doubt you would say that people should be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath or practicing Wicca, and yet that's clearly what the Torah says. In all these cases the religions have evolved from what they were, and, likely, were meant to be. Christianity was apparently some doomsday cult, Islam was a tool for government and empire, and Judaism was a set of laws and beliefs binding a specific tribe together in commonality. As an outsider, how can we see a difference between these belief systems prominent enough to warrant giving one more credence than another? Why should we consider not being outsiders anymore, and instead examining these beliefs from the inside when they seem to contradict every other faith on Earth and thus have little reason to stand out? I hope that was coherent. If not, I'll have to respond and revise in a couple days cause I'm going to bed and I'll be away tomorrow.

I actually have couple of questions somewhat unrelated to anything: can someone convert to Judaism and still be considered part of that 'heritage'? If someone deconverts from Judaism, is that person still a part of that 'heritage'? What is your interpretation of the afterlife?

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23-07-2017, 08:14 PM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:59 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Christians are told that Jews are really dumb

In my neck of the woods we tend to think of Jewish people as real smart (is a stereotype, I know).

Someone in the neck of the woods I am *currently* infesting, on seeing an (apparently, I missed it) Jewish person in a rather posh neighborhood commented how wherever there are rich people, there are Jews... Coincidentally, I was pretty much accused by this same person of being a... well, pretty much a racist, trying to tell black people what to do (which was and is unmerited and hurtful on so many levels and in so many ways...)

/derail

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24-07-2017, 05:53 AM
Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(23-07-2017 07:59 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 07:08 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Do blondes watch The Game of Thrones? Let's do an anecdotal study!

I don't see why you think it's such a stupid question. Christians are told that Jews are really dumb and that we "missed the boat" on our own Messiah. It would make sense that they might think we're sitting around justifying our position and repeating it to ourselves so we're all on the same page or something. Also, Christians spend a lot of time thinking about Judaism, so they may assume that we do the same for them.


As a Christian, no one has ever told me Jews are really dumb. Most Christians don’t talk about modern Jews all that much at all, and rightfully acknowledge that their messiah, and many of his early followers were Jews.

My interest in earlyJudaism, isn’t about you at all. It would be about contextualizing a book, a chapter, a verse. It would be the same as my interest in early Russian culture to get a better understanding of Tolstoy.

Being born Jewish doesn’t give you a better understanding of the OT, than a Christian, atheists, or anyone else.

Clearly you and others don’t believe Jesus is the messiah, though he’s become the most revered of any character that stemmed from the Bible, if Dawkins has atheists for Jesus article out there, and the Muslims even included him, as the sole perfect individual that has ever lived.

But then again you don’t have much of a formed view on the messiah, Jesus of christianity, outside some very bad experiences with other Christians.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-07-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(24-07-2017 05:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Clearly you and others don’t believe Jesus is the messiah, though he’s become the most revered of any character that stemmed from the Bible, if Dawkins has atheists for Jesus article out there, and the Muslims even included him, as the sole perfect individual that has ever lived.

But then again you don’t have much of a formed view on the messiah, Jesus of christianity, outside some very bad experiences with other Christians.

Yes while some of us may have had bad experiences with Christians, kind of like with you, Tomato. Tongue your implication that we are pissed and angry is simply a false assumption. We just hate general stupidity.

It's not "stemmed from" dear, it's "stemming from" ... which you will learn when you actually go get an education, from a real college.

Jesus in no way (if he existed) got the JOB DONE, a Messiah was supposed to do, and even at the end of the story in the Babble, his followers thought that :
"Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:7) It never happened, and shoe-horning the fake Jesus into a messiah-ship role he never claimed and never got done is nothing but a failed attempt to justify your cult when the end didn't happen as they thought it would.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-07-2017, 08:13 AM
Do Jews ever read the New Testament?
(24-07-2017 07:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-07-2017 05:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Clearly you and others don’t believe Jesus is the messiah, though he’s become the most revered of any character that stemmed from the Bible, if Dawkins has atheists for Jesus article out there, and the Muslims even included him, as the sole perfect individual that has ever lived.

But then again you don’t have much of a formed view on the messiah, Jesus of christianity, outside some very bad experiences with other Christians.

Yes while some of us may have had bad experiences with Christians, kind of like with you, Tomato. Tongue your implication that we are pissed and angry is simply a false assumption. We just hate general stupidity.

It's not "stemmed from" dear, it's "stemming from" ... which you will learn when you actually go get an education, from a real college.

Jesus in no way (if he existed) got the JOB DONE, a Messiah was supposed to do, and even at the end of the story in the Babble, his followers thought that :
"Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:7) It never happened, and shoe-horning the fake Jesus into a messiah-ship role he never claimed and never got done is nothing but a failed attempt to justify your cult when the end didn't happen as they thought it would.


I don’t think Jesus would have been anyone’s idea of a messiah at the time. I don’t think any of the OT writers when conceiving of a messiah, even as a hint, would have imagined Jesus as him. I’m sure that a classical imagination revolved around a quasi-military commander, a violent revolutionary, etc...

But I blame that on their lack of imagination. I imagine those writers as human as the rest of us, perhaps with some hint of something greater to come, which they couldn’t grasp in its entirety.

That lack of imagination extends to modern Jews like Aliza, who can’t even begin to envision what a Jewish messiah of today would even look like.

I personally don’t care whether Aliza or you or anyone else, including the OT writers would have thought of Jesus as the Messiah. To me, he’s the only being worthy of being called, the savior, the messiah, God himself. If he’s not, than there is no God, just imposters and pretenders.

For Aliza this is blasphemy, a victimless sin, that not even her own idea of God cares about, because all he cares about is what we do, not what we believe according to her.








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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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