Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
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13-09-2013, 10:35 PM
Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
I feel like everyone's initial answer to this question would be "no, of course not or else they wouldn't believe." While there are people who, when pressed with the most compelling of arguments, will hold steadfast to their beliefs, the majority of these people will fail to see that their beliefs make little sense. At least that's what I always thought.

Today, though, my best friend sent me a text about religion (don't ask). The text quoted Matthew 17:20 and said "I tell you the truth, if you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it would move. Nothing would be impossible." The text said some BS I ignored, but at the bottom it said "What is faith? Faith is going against all logic to think or act based on a belief."

What I don't understand is how you can admit that an idea defies logic, but still believe it to be true. My best guess is that people are, on various levels, afraid of giving up their faith. Any thoughts?
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14-09-2013, 02:59 AM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
(13-09-2013 10:35 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  I feel like everyone's initial answer to this question would be "no, of course not or else they wouldn't believe." While there are people who, when pressed with the most compelling of arguments, will hold steadfast to their beliefs, the majority of these people will fail to see that their beliefs make little sense. At least that's what I always thought.

Today, though, my best friend sent me a text about religion (don't ask). The text quoted Matthew 17:20 and said "I tell you the truth, if you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it would move. Nothing would be impossible." The text said some BS I ignored, but at the bottom it said "What is faith? Faith is going against all logic to think or act based on a belief."

What I don't understand is how you can admit that an idea defies logic, but still believe it to be true. My best guess is that people are, on various levels, afraid of giving up their faith. Any thoughts?

People, on any level, are afraid of giving up control. A belief in god means there is something in control. The cool thing about belief in god is, you get to make up the details as you go along.

Logic need not apply.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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14-09-2013, 04:18 AM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
Quote:Do Theists..

I'm going to stop you right there.
This is an ATHEIST forum...
If you want insight into how the theist brain operates does it not make rational sense to ask them..?

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14-09-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
(14-09-2013 04:18 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Do Theists..

I'm going to stop you right there.
This is an ATHEIST forum...
If you want insight into how the theist brain operates does it not make rational sense to ask them..?

That's too logical.

Or are you just demonstrating your atheistic credentials?

I say, to work out how the theistic brain operates, we should get some blunt scalpels and do some dissecting.

What say you?

Smile

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14-09-2013, 08:21 AM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
I think they do understand that their beliefs are illogical. If they didn't, they wouldn't have to "BELIEVE", they would say they know.

"God works in mysterious ways" is what they say when something illogical happens.

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14-09-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
(13-09-2013 10:35 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  I feel like everyone's initial answer to this question would be "no, of course not or else they wouldn't believe." While there are people who, when pressed with the most compelling of arguments, will hold steadfast to their beliefs, the majority of these people will fail to see that their beliefs make little sense. At least that's what I always thought.

Short answer; some of us do, some do not.

Quote:What I don't understand is how you can admit that an idea defies logic, but still believe it to be true. My best guess is that people are, on various levels, afraid of giving up their faith. Any thoughts?

It depends on the person. Some probably fear giving up religion and faith due to a fear of loosing control, purpose, direction. Others might just enjoy the religion and don´t want to give it up, since that would kind of take that slice of joy out of their life (at least temporarily).

The thing about the clash of logic and religious beliefs (when they do clash) is that it is not necessarily experienced as that uprooting and violent - even when a person is religious and has a fair grasp of logic (and science).
I think the reason is that religion and supernatural beliefs are not often actualized in the same situations.
Thus, to give an example, one can spend the Sunday in church, utilizing a supernatural mode of thinking and toning down the more insistent parts of logic, and the next day attend a science class, utilize logic and switch off the more supernatural modes of thinking.
I´m not saying it erases inconsistencies or makes religious beliefs logical, but I think it´s the way that a lot of theists cope with the points of conflict that can be between logic (and science) and religious beliefs.
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14-09-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
(13-09-2013 10:35 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  I feel like everyone's initial answer to this question would be "no, of course not or else they wouldn't believe." While there are people who, when pressed with the most compelling of arguments, will hold steadfast to their beliefs, the majority of these people will fail to see that their beliefs make little sense. At least that's what I always thought.

Today, though, my best friend sent me a text about religion (don't ask). The text quoted Matthew 17:20 and said "I tell you the truth, if you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it would move. Nothing would be impossible." The text said some BS I ignored, but at the bottom it said "What is faith? Faith is going against all logic to think or act based on a belief."

What I don't understand is how you can admit that an idea defies logic, but still believe it to be true. My best guess is that people are, on various levels, afraid of giving up their faith. Any thoughts?

I can understand your view point, as some theists just blindly follow their religion; as do some atheists. But proper science; the science conducted by smart scientists, not the sheep-scientists, has relieved startling evidence that there is a metaphysical presence in this world. One being that if the universe did come from nothing, certain aspects of how galaxy's "form", how stars 'form" would have have to have been changed and the laws of physics bent to a small extent (Notice the quotation marks? That's because I think the concept of stars forming is bollocks, for it has never been observed). Another being that sub-atomic particles such as neutrons are winking in and out of existence simultaneously. Where do they go? What makes them go? And more intriguingly; What makes them come back? "Lift a rock or split a log and you shall find me", this is not literal; it is saying that all you have to do is dig a little, and you will find god!
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14-09-2013, 11:57 AM
Re: RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
(14-09-2013 04:18 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Do Theists..

I'm going to stop you right there.
This is an ATHEIST forum...
If you want insight into how the theist brain operates does it not make rational sense to ask them..?

Doesn't make rational sense to me... Since its unusual die theists to be able to grasp their brains and motivation on a rational sense.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-09-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
I think deep down inside, every theist has their doubts. It's rare to find those that admit it though.

I think many are actually borderline agnostic... they tend to ignore those doubts because of family, friends and the warm, fuzzy feeling it gives a lot of people. That in itself is a sign that you're not content with blind faith... by doing that, you're admitting to yourself that there's something in your life more important than God.

If there's one thing that makes me glad I rejected faith... its my freedom to think. As an atheist, you can freely question absolutely anything you wish, without fear of repercussions (either earthly or otherwise).

No one should be afraid to think... but many are.

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14-09-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Do Theists Realize Their Beliefs Are Illogical?
(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  But proper science; the science conducted by smart scientists, not the sheep-scientists,

Ah. Ye-eees. Right then.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  has relieved startling evidence that there is a metaphysical presence in this world.

Citation eeded.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  One being that if the universe did come from nothing,

Which by definition cannot be metaphysical, insofar as it cannot be physical either; not that saying "from nothing" isn't already a bit dishonest.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  certain aspects of how galaxy's "form",

Gravity.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  how stars 'form"

Gravity.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  would have have to have been changed and the laws of physics bent to a small extent (Notice the quotation marks? That's because I think the concept of stars forming is bollocks, for it has never been observed).

Nebulae. Look at one.

There are stars younger than the observable universe. Therefore they "formed" some time after the universe did. QED.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  Another being that sub-atomic particles such as neutrons are winking in and out of existence simultaneously. Where do they go? What makes them go? And more intriguingly; What makes them come back?

Just no.

(14-09-2013 10:57 AM)Isaac Wrote:  "Lift a rock or split a log and you shall find me", this is not literal; it is saying that all you have to do is dig a little, and you will find god!

But of course, if one is so inclined as to call whatever they find god.

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