Do You Support the Death Penalty?
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10-10-2017, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2017 08:02 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 07:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  Bad argument. You can argue about just about anything on earth because someone somewhere abuses it. Obviously we don't want abuse. We want self supporting people who contribute to society and get rewarded.

People sitting around for years just stewing in their heads are going to emerge more dangerous than they were to start with. It's just stupid.

Wow!
I can't wait for this world inside your mind to come to fruition.
It will be such a wonderful place. And to think we've all been waiting for you to arrive and make it all better.
Prison's will be kind and gentle and be run by wonderful people and filled with essentially misunderstood people who only butchered people because of a chemical imbalance.
And corporations will line up to fix the problems of poverty and crime by accepting a lower bottom line.
The current trends really point toward that future.
Can't wait.
So I assume that prisons will no longer be privatized soon?
And the justice system that funnels people into this sort of racket is soon to be a thing of the past?
I must have missed that day in the newspapers.
Last I checked people support a hard line of crime by a very very wide margin.

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10-10-2017, 08:20 AM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 07:57 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  Bad argument. You can argue about just about anything on earth because someone somewhere abuses it. Obviously we don't want abuse. We want self supporting people who contribute to society and get rewarded.

People sitting around for years just stewing in their heads are going to emerge more dangerous than they were to start with. It's just stupid.

Wow!
I can't wait for this world inside your mind to come to fruition.
It will be such a wonderful place. And to think we've all been waiting for you to arrive and make it all better.
Prison's will be kind and gentle and be run by wonderful people and filled with essentially misunderstood people who only butchered people because of a chemical imbalance.
And corporations will line up to fix the problems of poverty and crime by accepting a lower bottom line.
The current trends really point toward that future.
Can't wait.
So I assume that prisons will no longer be privatized soon?
And the justice system that funnels people into this sort of racket is soon to be a thing of the past?
I must have missed that day in the newspapers.
Last I checked people support a hard line of crime by a very very wide margin.

Wow, you have quite a nasty side to you. I hadn't noticed it before.

Obviously I am not fixing a damn thing anymore, I am an old woman with an expiration date stamped on my head.

That doesn't mean that the world cannot do better than it is now.

And yes, a better prison system isn't even a pipe dream. The US is woefully behind all the other civilized nations, in this and many other things.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-10-2017, 08:29 AM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 08:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:57 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Wow!
I can't wait for this world inside your mind to come to fruition.
It will be such a wonderful place. And to think we've all been waiting for you to arrive and make it all better.
Prison's will be kind and gentle and be run by wonderful people and filled with essentially misunderstood people who only butchered people because of a chemical imbalance.
And corporations will line up to fix the problems of poverty and crime by accepting a lower bottom line.
The current trends really point toward that future.
Can't wait.
So I assume that prisons will no longer be privatized soon?
And the justice system that funnels people into this sort of racket is soon to be a thing of the past?
I must have missed that day in the newspapers.
Last I checked people support a hard line of crime by a very very wide margin.



And yes, a better prison system isn't even a pipe dream. The US is woefully behind all the other civilized nations, in this and many other things.

It's a qualitative judgement that I won't make.
But it's far from a simple metric.
I suggest that what constitutes a "better prison system" depends on many things.
As mentioned earlier in this thread.
Quote:In Australia, there's a 40% recidivism rate amongst criminals incarcerated for crimes of violence (51% of prison population). Within 18 months, they're convicted and returned to prison as a result of further crimes. That figure includes 32% of prisoners convicted of murder, and 26% convicted of rape.
—Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) 25 February 2016

In January this year, here in Melbourne, we had the case of 26-year-old Dimitrious Gargasoulas who killed six people—including a three-month-old baby—and injured 30 others in a CBD shopping precinct rampage, by driving his vehicle through the open pedestrian mall. There were more than 100 eyewitness accounts confirming his identity, and the police also confirmed he was on bail for previous crimes of violence and drug offences.

This is the arsehole...

You think maybe if he worked in a call center things might have come out differently?

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10-10-2017, 08:31 AM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 08:29 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 08:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  And yes, a better prison system isn't even a pipe dream. The US is woefully behind all the other civilized nations, in this and many other things.

It's a qualitative judgement that I won't make.
But it's far from a simple metric.
I suggest that what constitutes a "better prison system" depends on many things.
As mentioned earlier in this thread.
Quote:In Australia, there's a 40% recidivism rate amongst criminals incarcerated for crimes of violence (51% of prison population). Within 18 months, they're convicted and returned to prison as a result of further crimes. That figure includes 32% of prisoners convicted of murder, and 26% convicted of rape.
—Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) 25 February 2016

In January this year, here in Melbourne, we had the case of 26-year-old Dimitrious Gargasoulas who killed six people—including a three-month-old baby—and injured 30 others in a CBD shopping precinct rampage, by driving his vehicle through the open pedestrian mall. There were more than 100 eyewitness accounts confirming his identity, and the police also confirmed he was on bail for previous crimes of violence and drug offences.

This is the arsehole...

Well, now we are going to start talking in circles, so I am going to bow out of this conversation. Also, my attendance will be spotty for the rest of the day. You have a good one.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-10-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 07:27 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The cost of keeping inmates in high security prisons include the price of building the facility, for it' s projected lifetime - then divided by the number it will house over that lifetime. Considering the inmates will grows old and die there, the cost per inmate goes way up, over the cost of lower security prisons where the price is spread out over a much larger group of inmates doing much shorter sentences. ( comparatively).

Obviously they have to work for a living like everyone else. For all I care they can be given coupons to purchase creature comforts for their work. There are many jobs that can be done on a computer without internet access. I am not a proponent of inmates having nothing to do. It's inhuman and makes for more relapses. I see no reason why inmates should not work. It doesn't have to be chain gangs, it has to be useful to society.

Working inmates only is economically feasible with low risk, low security inmates who WANT to work. Those that do not want to work, and high risk, high security inmates are not worth the effort. It ends up costing more than the value of their work.

.......................................

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10-10-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 08:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  That doesn't mean that the world cannot do better than it is now.

Thank you, Dom: I'm glad to see that put into so many words.

It never ceases to puzzle me how people who readily agree things are fucked up right now, will nevertheless vehemently argue against any proposed change that deviates from traditional norms, on the grounds that it won't result in a perfect outcome.

It is possible to keep one's eye on a philosophical goal of perfection, while at the same time actively pursuing the practical goal of just trying to make things a little better than they are right now.

I see nothing wrong with that.

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10-10-2017, 06:53 PM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(10-10-2017 10:45 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Working inmates only is economically feasible with low risk, low security inmates who WANT to work. Those that do not want to work, and high risk, high security inmates are not worth the effort. It ends up costing more than the value of their work.

That's a little hard to swallow, given that working prisoners are essentially treated like slave labor.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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10-10-2017, 09:20 PM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
Would a person who harmed my children or my friends or my grandchildren or my children's spouses need to be careful in my presence, yes. I am now old enough that I would probably need to have a weapon. I would prefer to ring their slimy neck but I am afraid for the most part I am left to a bullet in the eye. Yes I would do that.

I do not trust the state to make that decision. I am not sure I trust myself. State sanctioned killing is flawed in so many ways I cannot condone it.
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11-10-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(09-10-2017 07:28 AM)Loom Wrote:  I'm a bit on the fence on this.

On the one hand, in cases of the most heinous crimes (outright, needless murder) with complete, solid proof on who the guilty party was (video, DNA), I think they ought to meet up with a firing squad.

On the other hand our judicial system has already outright murdered innocent people. So unless we can prove guilt, without a single shred of doubt, then I'm against the death penalty.

That's sort of how I feel at the moment.
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11-10-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: Do You Support the Death Penalty?
(09-10-2017 08:46 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Enough bullshit.

Then stop talking.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Your " March with us, or you' re a racist fuck" innuendo is typical of the bullshit around here..

Well, people wouldn't say this sort of thing if you weren't such a fucking racist.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  ...
For themotherfuckingrecord -

Yeah, for the mother fucking record, I can't stand the way you write and I can't tell if it is because of some hardware limitation or if you are just stupid and can't form a full sentence. Either way, rectify the problem.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Yes I believe the death penalty should be allowed and used.

That wasn't very much of a mystery there, Jack.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Only for the worst, most heinous.

How do you determine that? What are the "most heinous" crimes? Would we have a set criteria and, if so, how will it react when there are even worse crimes? This is such a meaningless point to make in your distinction of when you think it is acceptable to use the death penalty.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Only with the highest degree of certainty that we have the murdering fuck.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean 100% certainty and I, along with rational people, are not willing to take that chance. Even if you did support the death penalty, I cannot see how you justify one innocent death for a hundred guilty ones. The more I read your posts, the more I think you have a mental deficiency. Are you a sociopath, by any chance?

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Physical, uncompromised forensic evidence that is scientifically verifiable.

There is nothing of the sort. You can read up on this, but most of the bullshit that we define as "forensic evidence" is made up fluff with no justifiable success rate. Bite mark analysis, fingerprints, blood analysis, hair strand comparisons? It is all unreliable or nonsense. The only thing that will work is DNA analysis, but it is difficult to get a reliably healthy copy to successfully analyze.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Yes, too many innocent people now die, and yes that needs correcting.

What do you define as "too many?" Is there an acceptable number of innocent people that you are content with murdering?

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  And - when we do kill someone - " putting them to sleep" is the last goddamned thing we need..

Oh, so you do condone torture.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Executions should be gruesome, violent and public. If that offends your sensibilities, you're not required to watch.

Oh, how thoughtful of you. At least now people with a conscience wouldn't have to watch the human rights violation.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  When someone is so horrible that the only thing we can do is kill them, then the only use they can be is a warning to others.

The death penalty does not act as a deterrent and never has.

(09-10-2017 07:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  There's some people out there that figure being locked in a room for the rest of their life isn't such a bad thing...

There are also some people out there who think there is justifiable murder and I am still waiting for a valid reason for it, but you certainly don't have it. Run along now. Bye-bye! Drinking Beverage

Good argumentThumbsup I like the points you make.
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