Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
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06-09-2013, 06:52 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 06:36 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 02:28 AM)I and I Wrote:  As usual, you make a claim and can't back it up. You claim that what is actual exists regardless of human mental conceptualizing an actuality. You still have yet to explain how something is an actuality regardless of human minds existing to believe in an actuality such as photosynthesis.

Now, if you're not just pretending not to know the difference, you're advocating an extreme form of solipsism.

That the observable universe comprises a persistent external reality, independent of any particular human mind, is indeed an assumption; but it just happens to be one whose consequences are occasionally of some small utility.

nope, I am not arguing the idiotic idea that an external reality doesn't exist. I am arguing that humans relate to this external reality by conceptualizing it into different categories with the use of language, like the word "fact" or "actuality". Without human minds to perform this process of relating to the world there are no such things as "facts" If a human mind doesn't believe in or isn't aware of certain facts then those facts do not exist. A "fact" is not external to a human, the outside world is.
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06-09-2013, 07:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2013 07:14 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 02:28 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(05-09-2013 11:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  As I said before. You are equivocating the word "fact".
What is actual is real.
Sometimes what is actual is labeled a fact.
Sometimes it's not.
The mythical stories the tribe believe in are actual. What they REFER to, is not real, or actual. You are not speaking about the same things, and pretending they are the same thing. As usual, you are incoherent. Go fuck yourself already. The end.

As usual, you make a claim and can't back it up. You claim that what is actual exists regardless of human mental conceptualizing an actuality. You still have yet to explain how something is an actuality regardless of human minds existing to believe in an actuality such as photosynthesis.

There are mountains of evidence that photosynthesis occurs, and was occurring, for billions of years before any human mind recognized it. You have none, (zero, zip), that it was not. I'm not making a claim. What's going on here, is that YOU have failed to define the word "fact", and from there have taken a simple question, and twisted a non-question, and made a problem where there is none.

You're proposing the universe was random, until a human posited order in a specific system. That's preposterous. YOU wouldn't be here if Physics, Chemistry, Evolution etc etc were not all operating according to the laws of nature (facts), for billions of years. Are you really this stupid ?
No wonder all your threads are so fucked up.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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06-09-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 06:52 AM)I and I Wrote:  nope, I am not arguing the idiotic idea that an external reality doesn't exist.

Well, there you go.

The functioning of the universe is constant and independent of human activity.

(06-09-2013 06:52 AM)I and I Wrote:  I am arguing that humans relate to this external reality by conceptualizing it into different categories with the use of language, like the word "fact" or "actuality". Without human minds to perform this process of relating to the world there are no such things as "facts" If a human mind doesn't believe in or isn't aware of certain facts then those facts do not exist. A "fact" is not external to a human, the outside world is.

Sure. The outside world then necessarily has certain properties. One might call them reality. The conclusions reached by humans regarding the nature of reality - that is to say, those conclusions which are assumed to reflect that external reality, are termed facts. Use of the word is then also taken to mean the qualities of external reality in and of themselves.

You may note that this is exactly what Bucky said just prior, and has literally been explained numerous times throughout this thread.

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06-09-2013, 07:13 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 07:08 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 06:52 AM)I and I Wrote:  nope, I am not arguing the idiotic idea that an external reality doesn't exist.

Well, there you go.

The functioning of the universe is constant and independent of human activity.

(06-09-2013 06:52 AM)I and I Wrote:  I am arguing that humans relate to this external reality by conceptualizing it into different categories with the use of language, like the word "fact" or "actuality". Without human minds to perform this process of relating to the world there are no such things as "facts" If a human mind doesn't believe in or isn't aware of certain facts then those facts do not exist. A "fact" is not external to a human, the outside world is.

Sure. The outside world then necessarily has certain properties. One might call them reality. The conclusions reached by humans regarding the nature of reality - that is to say, those conclusions which are assumed to reflect that external reality, are termed facts. Use of the word is then also taken to mean the qualities of external reality in and of themselves.

You may note that this is exactly what Bucky said just prior, and has literally been explained numerous times throughout this thread.

No, Bucky is arguing that actuality is external to human minds, I am arguing that actuality like the word fact is a conceptual linguistic tool that we use to relate to the external world.

The functioning of the universe isn't constant, it never has been.
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06-09-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  No, Bucky is arguing that actuality is external to human minds, I am arguing that actuality like the word fact is a conceptual linguistic tool that we use to relate to the external world.

That is because you are defining 'actuality' differently. Bucky is using it to refer to external reality. You are using it to refer to the collective human conception thereof.

(06-09-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  The functioning of the universe isn't constant, it never has been.

At minimum, that it is functioning is necessarily constant.

On what basis do you conclude that the physical laws of the universe have changed over time?

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06-09-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
Facts are contingent, beliefs are temporal. In the sense that we all believe in future, belief sponsors fact; in the sense of all, that solution is trivial.

Witchcraft, actually, the naming of the thing. Undecided

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06-09-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 07:23 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  No, Bucky is arguing that actuality is external to human minds, I am arguing that actuality like the word fact is a conceptual linguistic tool that we use to relate to the external world.

That is because you are defining 'actuality' differently. Bucky is using it to refer to external reality. You are using it to refer to the collective human conception thereof.

(06-09-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  The functioning of the universe isn't constant, it never has been.

At minimum, that it is functioning is necessarily constant.

On what basis do you conclude that the physical laws of the universe have changed over time?


Then by his definition of actuality as being external to human minds, actuality can't exist without a human mind conceptualize it. Does a hammer exist to a frog? No, a hammer is part of our conceptual understanding, it's uses, what to use it with, how to use it etc etc, this to a frog is non existent and does not occupy a frogs brain, therefore hammers do not exist to a frog.
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06-09-2013, 08:02 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 07:49 AM)I and I Wrote:  Then by his definition of actuality as being external to human minds, actuality can't exist without a human mind conceptualize it.

That is incoherent and contradictory.

If the universe exists external to the human mind (a statement you just agreed with) then its properties and interactions exist external to the human mind. This necessarily follows.

This is literally the exact same discussion as with the word 'fact'. It refers in abstract to properties of external reality. It refers in practice to human conclusions as to those properties.

(06-09-2013 07:49 AM)I and I Wrote:  Does a hammer exist to a frog? No, a hammer is part of our conceptual understanding, it's uses, what to use it with, how to use it etc etc, this to a frog is non existent and does not occupy a frogs brain, therefore hammers do not exist to a frog.

A hammer, as an object, assuredly does exist to a frog, as something which may be physically interacted with. A frog does, indeed, not have a human understanding of the use to which it may be put. So what?

You seem to be saying that only humans may have a human understanding. That is startlingly tautological.

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06-09-2013, 08:08 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
(06-09-2013 07:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 07:08 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Well, there you go.

The functioning of the universe is constant and independent of human activity.


Sure. The outside world then necessarily has certain properties. One might call them reality. The conclusions reached by humans regarding the nature of reality - that is to say, those conclusions which are assumed to reflect that external reality, are termed facts. Use of the word is then also taken to mean the qualities of external reality in and of themselves.

You may note that this is exactly what Bucky said just prior, and has literally been explained numerous times throughout this thread.

No, Bucky is arguing that actuality is external to human minds, I am arguing that actuality like the word fact is a conceptual linguistic tool that we use to relate to the external world.

The functioning of the universe isn't constant, it never has been.

As I said, I knew you had an agenda. You have been arguing this bullshit since your first day here when you attempted to say that time did not actually exist.
The universe exists, and is independent of human minds. Human minds could not have evolved, and work according to FACTS (the laws of nature), if this were not the case. You have posited something, and provided NOT ONE SHRED of evidence for your crap position. Give us the evidence or STFU. Where is the evidence the universe acts randomly UNTIL human minds "name" something. When you die, the universe will go on, no matter that your brain ceases to continue to perceive it.
Your proposition is crap, and you have NO, (NOT ONE PIECE) of evidence to support it.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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06-09-2013, 08:14 AM
RE: Do facts require belief for it to be a fact?
Actual requires an actualizing actuator. Which is contingency. Tongue

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